Paratyphoid! Can it be stopped?

[Guest IB]

One of the mysteries for me is where people who quote figures get those figures from. If 'say' 80% of British lofts were infected, wouldn't you expect Animal Health Authorities to take more of an interest, for example with vaccination being made compulsory as is the case with PMV, to protect poultry flocks?

 

In a letter from DEFRA dated 5th January 2010, they leave little doubt that they are interested in Salmonella infection in racing pigeons 'which may spread from pigeons to poultry such as breeding and laying chickens. In commercial laying and breeding flocks, isolations of these types of Salmonella would result in culling of breeding flocks or culling / egg restrictions in laying flocks, due to EU and national legislation for control of Salmonella and the protection of public health.'

 

I have asked for further clarification on the figures given to me for incidents of Salmonella reported in racing pigeons in Britain, 1st January 2005 to 1st December 2009, but this is what DEFRA's stats say:-

 

2005 - 2

2006 - 1

2007 - 5

2008 - 25

2009 - 4

 

'The figures provided indicate that there was an increase in the number of reported incidents in 2008. We do not know the reason behind this.'

[frank-123]

 

It depends also in what form the bird gets it. if the bird has the disease in the brain which gives the twisted neck syndrome similar to PMV then 90% of of these birds end up dead.

If the birds get it in the leg or wing joints they are finished even if treated as the joints are irreparable.  As for de weerd his only interest in salmonella is to sell parastop to people he isnt gonna give advice to vaccinate as he would loose hundreds of thousands on a product that most people on here say is poor anyway. I cant comment on parastop as ive never used it and will never use it, i will continue as others like owen have said and will follow the advice of the experts. Im no expert and dont pretend to be. I have a big interest in pigeon health and thats it. You to pigeonscout are no expert either all we can do is give advice based upon what we know and its up to others to make up there mind to what they want to do.

 

 

 

 

 

thats cheered me up i was told they would race fine after clearing it with baytril ??)

[holmsidelofts]

 

They all say to treat for paratyphoid before you give the vaccine so he could tell people to treat with para before the vaccine and still sell the same amount. If your going to give advice on something it pays to know a wee bit about it first and not tell people they are talking crap when they have stated a fact.

 

I never said you were talking crap, i said you have an opinion the same as i have one, i said you are no professional expert like i am not all im saying is its up to people to make up there minds on this subject, there is 2 schools of thought on the treatment before vaccine. one is to get the birds tested, the other is to treat blind before vaccine they dont all say treat before vaccinating there is no point in treating for something you havent got. my advice would always be get them properly tested first by a proper lab that can tell you for certain before hand if you have it, theres to much blind treatment going on thats not required and is not doing the bird any good. if you birds dont have salmonella then you dont have to treat before vaccination and thats fact.

 

 

 

[holmsidelofts]

 

thats cheered me up i was told they would race fine after clearing it with baytril ??)

 

If a bird has salmonella in the joints of the wings or legs baytril will get rid of the salmonella but it wont repair the damage done to the joints, they will always be swollen and your chances of that bird competing again is slim.

 

[dwh]

you can be as vigilent as you want but if everybody flying in your club is not as careful as you then surely your birds are at risk of infection or reinfection?

[ch pied]

chloramphenicol & furaltadone combined = altabactine . (parastop) is a poor cousen

[pigeonscout]

 

I never said you were talking crap, i said you have an opinion the same as i have one, i said you are no professional expert like i am not all im saying is its up to people to make up there minds on this subject, there is 2 schools of thought on the treatment before vaccine. one is to get the birds tested, the other is to treat blind before vaccine they dont all say treat before vaccinating there is no point in treating for something you havent got. my advice would always be get them properly tested first by a proper lab that can tell you for certain before hand if you have it, theres to much blind treatment going on thats not required and is not doing the bird any good. if you birds dont have salmonella then you dont have to treat before vaccination and thats fact.

 

 

 

 

Go to reply 18 of 63 on page 4 / 19 down and tell me you did not say that the fact I stated was a load of crap.

[holmsidelofts]

 

 

Go to reply 18 of 63 on page 4 / 19 down and tell me you did not say that the fact I stated was a load of crap.

 

I do stand corrected on that and i apologise for that comment, but i still disagree with what you are saying, but you are entitled to your opinion the same as i am and we have to respect each others opinions and let others make up there mind on this subject.

 

[ch pied]

With paramyxo he has no choice . For what its worth , i won't use the sam & ella vacc , as i have seen some good fancier's loft's destroyed by the use of Baytril and live & inactive vacc over the last 4 year's of repeated use . And i will not use parastop either it being a weak form of altabactine .

yes it was the grim reaper that came to these loft's ,,,,,,,,Paratyphoid

 

 

[pigeonscout]

 

I do stand corrected on that and i apologise for that comment, but i still disagree with what you are saying, but you are entitled to your opinion the same as i am and we have to respect each others opinions and let others make up there mind on this subject.

 

What do you disagree with? as all i have said is the vaccine does not stop them from getting Paratyphoid and it will not kill 90 to 100% of your birds.

 

[holmsidelofts]

 

What do you disagree with? as all i have said is the vaccine does not stop them from getting Paratyphoid and it will not kill 90 to 100% of your birds.

 

And i agree with you on that, what i disagree with is that although the vaccine is not 100% guaranteed to stop salmonella the benefits out way the negatives.

A quote from Dr Wim Peters on the subject:

pigeons not infected already should not react badly from vaccination, from this question we know that the fancier vaccinates his pigeons every year, so we can suppose that a loft has a good general state of health. in such circumstances the disadvantages of vaccination against salmonella are minimal and the advantages far exceed the disadvantages. so after vaccination the pigeons condition should improve greatly and their results also better.

Page 271 of Dr Zolts Talaber's book vets tips for fanciers.

 

 

 

[Guest IB]

 

thats cheered me up i was told they would race fine after clearing it with baytril ??)

 

I was told infected joints never heal, they always seize up. The other thing about Baytril is it has a warning that it can damage cartilage. Joints are made of cartilage.

[pigeonscout]

 

And i agree with you on that, what i disagree with is that although the vaccine is not 100% guaranteed to stop salmonella the benefits out way the negatives.

A quote from Dr Wim Peters on the subject:

pigeons not infected already should not react badly from vaccination, from this question we know that the fancier vaccinates his pigeons every year, so we can suppose that a loft has a good general state of health. in such circumstances the disadvantages of vaccination against salmonella are minimal and the advantages far exceed the disadvantages. so after vaccination the pigeons condition should improve greatly and their results also better.

Page 271 of Dr Zolts Talaber's book vets tips for fanciers.

 

 

 

Does he say why a healthy birds condition should improve after vaccination.

[holmsidelofts]

 

Does he say why a healthy birds condition should improve after vaccination.

 

No he doesnt mate which is quite strange. but he is one of the vets who have been on the fence so to speak about if you should vaccinate or not, I have vaccinated for 3 years straight now and never had one bird show any illness to the vaccine . but its important that you vaccinate a second time within 4 weeks of the first and thats with all dead vaccines including PMV but fanciers aint always told that and that i feel is one of the reasons you get varied results from vaccinations and that includes PMV. Quite interesting now that the WHU have decided  to make it non compulsory to vaccinate old birds against PMV you only need to vaccinate youngster. It will be interesting to see if theres a rise in PMV over the next few years as we have seen a rise already before this came in. I will continue to vaccinate for PMV as i feel for the cost of £20 its not worth the risk, I had PMV in the 80s and i wouldnt want it again.

 

Jas.

 

[pigeonscout]

There are arguments for and against the use of a vaccine for paratyphoid. All vets will tell you to vaccinate for PMV so we come to the conclusion it has been proven to work. Not all vets agree to vaccinate for paratyphoid so we can come to the conclusion it has not been proven to work. I for one was very surprised to find out that the vaccine for paratyphoid did not even have a 1% success rate in stopping a bird from getting paratyphoid as I thought that was the purpose of a vaccine. It turns out it only helps with the  death rate which is very low in old birds anyway.  I treat with Antibiotics before pairing up just to be on the safe side as I believe paratyphoid will do most of its killing in the egg and up to ten days old. Some would say I should have them tested  but to test them you need to collect the dropping for 5 days and even then the results can come back clear even though they have it. I will be the first to use a vaccine for paratyphoid when they have found one that has been proven to work and all vets agree with the use of it just like they have with the PMV vaccine.

[andy Burgess]

another from the archives .

[William Reid]

another from the archives .

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[Tony C]

[Jim Breaks]

hi ive got two month old young uns with drooping wings two never hatched and another pair one died in the nest also two hens died ,in other shed one hen is in bad shape two year old and never laid this year had dropping tested  and they came back good .. treating the hen and two young uns with Duramycen from Dac also ordered parastop ...

 

[Jim Breaks]

update - found one of the wing droops lying in the nest 32 days old despatched it

[JCN]

On 5/11/2023 at 3:25 PM, Jim Breaks said:

hi ive got two month old young uns with drooping wings two never hatched and another pair one died in the nest also two hens died ,in other shed one hen is in bad shape two year old and never laid this year had dropping tested  and they came back good .. treating the hen and two young uns with Duramycen from Dac also ordered parastop ...

 

I'd shut the loft down and be seeking help from good pigeon vet to treat full team dispose of any that have went down and burn out lofts and equipment. JMO

[JCN]

Would also add that pigeons can come back from having paratythoid. Know of a bird that had it in wing joint and went on to compete at international level. That was one bird that developed it in the wing butt.....maybe different ball game when while loft is under attack from the salmonella 

[Jim Breaks]

how can it be stopped Marra ?

[Bobby4]

i had it an its a curse i have got clear off it but you have to keep on top off it as you can catch it the next time you race the birds get onto belgica de weerd or pigeon testing centre both in homing world an ask for lisa