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Paratyphoid! Can it be stopped? Rate Topic: -----

#21 User is offline   mushroom 

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Posted 16 September 2008 - 14:14 PM

Regarding vaccination for paratyphus . You must make sure that you have given your birds a course of treatment to clear the infection BEFORE you vaccinate them. You should not vaccinate infected birds.
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#22 User is offline   frank-123 

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Posted 16 September 2008 - 14:38 PM

i remember a few pigeon forums at the start of this breeding season saying there young were dying in the nest blaming the nest felts as the cause
maybe it was paratyphoid/salmonella as the cause
If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything

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Posted 16 September 2008 - 19:27 PM

Vic has raised this issue several times. You cannot attribute wholesale losses to a condition / disease / bacterial infection that you have not first established exists in the general racing pigeon population. I have not heard that racing pigeons are endemic carriers of salmonella and I would be very surprised if they were, because humans can catch it too, and it is a Notifiable disease. DEFRA and the Scottish, Welsh and Irish Animal Health Departments would be on it like a ton of bricks, especially if an outbreak occurred near any poultry farm. I am still awaiting a post from anyone giving current UK statistics of salmonella infections in racing pigeons, or stating categorically where in the UK and when these ‘repeated’ endemic outbreaks occurred.

Other issues raised in the thread also concern me. Forget ‘Salmonella’ and think instead about ‘disease’. We and are our pigeons are surrounded by potential disease-causing stuff 24/7. We have two things to protect us; our basic hygiene and our internal and external ‘skins’ which form a barrier shutting everything out.

So we keep ourselves ‘clean’, and our environment ‘clean’. There is also natural cleaners in the environment, and some live on our skins too. As long as there are enough of them there, and there is no break in the skin, we are safe. It is when a break occurs and this first line of defence is breached allowing anything into the bloodstream (and access to any part of the body) that disease is a real possibility.

So practice good hygiene, and help the pigeon maintain its immune system and it will do the rest. The gut wall is part of that immune system and one of the largest areas of internal skin. It is covered with mucous, and gazillions of bacteria which you want to flourish. Not only do they secrete natural antibiotics which kills other bacteria, they help in our and the birds' digestion. So the more the merrier because that will also crowd everything else out, and if it can’t get near the gut wall, it can’t get through and into the bloodstream and can't cause bother. Any antibiotic or antimicrobial (anything artificial we give to the birds to kill any form of life) will kill these 'friendly bacteria' in their zillions. On the other hand, give any probiotic including live yoghurt, and that will give them a boost. Think of a probiotic as a multi-vaccine, and consign antibiotic use in pigeons to history.














#24 User is offline   sammy 

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Posted 16 September 2008 - 20:20 PM

can remember back to the time when paramyxo came to these shore think it was back 82/83 and channel racing got suspended through ,the then shu held a meeting in motherwell civic centre to discuss the problem of para and held a vote to make it compulsary any how the shu vet at the time was a think called a guy called macrae and he stated then that when pigeons take para then in 99% of cases salmonella/paratyphoid is present and explained that to keep para at bay we should vaccinate them so what happens to the salmonella at this point it dont just dissapear ,in my understanding of vaccination is it builds up anti bodies in the blood to enable the pigeon to fight it of dont mean to say it wont take and in a way that might not be visible to the naked eye and remember when a foreign body is given to any animal its own immune system starts to work and attack it leaving it vurnable to other diseases in my opinion salmonella ?? ;)
HE WHO CANNOT FORGIVE ANOTHER BREAKS THE BRIDGE OVER WHICH HE MUST PASS HIMSELF

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Posted 16 September 2008 - 21:38 PM

All Good replies guys.  But no fancier anywhere, will ever stop rodents from having a free run during darkness, be it within or outside your  lofts, they are nocturnal afterall, and do their business  during the night.  Will come back later, CHAMPIONSHIP HIGHLIGHTS LOOMING!    

#26 User is offline   DOVEScot 

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Posted 17 September 2008 - 09:49 AM

http://www.wiseharmo...ry/articles.htm
Stalosan F for pigeons.
Stalosan F is one of the best-kept secrets from the pigeon fancier. I first started working with it in the intensive poultry world and quickly realised it also had an application for my pigeons. It is a unique powder disinfectant that is ideal for use as a loft powder being able to dry up damp patches, reduce smells and kill infectious organisms. Laboratory studies have shown that it will kill paramyxovirus, E.coli, salmonella, coccidia and worm eggs.
In this article I would like to review the background to disease problems and detail the trial work that has been completed with Stalosan F.

The Problem - sudden rapid build ups of infection

Young birds and old birds are more susceptible to infections. The mixed age groups that is the normal way for keeping the racing pigeon ensures that infection is present at low and inapparent levels throughout the year.

However, at specific times of the year this may change, most notably in the spring. The dampness, warmer days and the stress of breeding and rearing youngsters can be associated with a rapid build up of infection that results in disease.

The most familiar will be the respiratory (the "snots"), intestinal (coccidiosis) and mortality ("young bird sickness") problems that beset the youngster.

Survival of infection

The ability of infectious organisms to survive and develop in the environment varies with the particular organism.

The majority (viruses, bacteria, mycoplasma and Chlamydia) merely survive in droppings and respiratory exudates until they enter another susceptible pigeon.

Coccidial oocysts and worm eggs must undergo further development before they are able to successfully infect another bird.

The huge numbers of infectious organisms that may be present in one dropping - in excess of 20,000 coccidial oocysts to 100's of millions of bacteria and viruses, is the reason for their success.




Spread of infection from bird to bird


Infection is spread from bird to bird by many routes.
1.
Through the air - mycoplasma

2.
Through the water - E.coli

3.
Through the droppings - coccidia, worms.

4.
Through crop feeding - canker

5.
Through fighting - pigeon pox

6.
Through handling



If you can find a way to reduce that cross-infection then you have a good chance of preventing disease problems. Stalosan's safety factor allows the fancier to achieve that control.

Why does disease occur

Disease is the outward sign associated with uncontrolled infection. Your birds may become infected and affected without showing signs of disease. There are many factors involved that determine whether or not disease occurs. Some of these are listed below:-



1.
How infectious is the organism i.e. does it take one or many thousands of organisms to initiate disease.

2.
The level of environmental contamination.

3.
The humidity and temperature in the loft.

4.
The number of birds in each section.



The impact of disease

Disease can have varying effects from the annoying to the disastrous. Breeding performance can suffer, viability and growth of the young can be affected, feed and water intake is often reduced and performance, almost inevitably, will suffer. It goes without saying that there is also a cost implication to disease either in the form of replacement costs, treatment costs or additional rearing costs.

How Stalosan F works

Stalosan works as a disinfectant, killing many types of virus including parmyxoviruses, bacteria such as E.coli and Salmonella spp., mycoplasmas, coccidia and worm eggs. It also acts as a powerful drying agent and works to reduce the levels of ammonia and sulphur gases in the loft. All the key areas in loft management. We have trialled the product in our own lofts for nearly a year ( my partner Fred will not be without it now). Over this period I have regularly tested the dropping and the loft area for bacterial levels , coccidial oocysts and carried out regular worm egg counts. There is no doubt that regular use of Stalosan has maintained uniformly low levels ( less than 1000 oocysts/g faeces and no worm eggs ). As a result we have had fewer problems and had to spend less on medication. Our lofts are drier and smell much better and my colleague Fred is on the blower if we look like running out.



The benefits of using Stalosan F

1.
Dries up damp patches on the floor from watery droppings and spilt water

2.
Leaves a covering of powder over all the surfaces that the pigeons walk and perch on.

3.
Helps keep the atmosphere smelling fresher.

4.
Persists for several days to a week after it has been used regularly.

5.
Keeps the pigeons feet drier and cleaner.

6.
Reduces the challenge from infectious organisms particularly coccidia and worms.

7.
Reduces the reliance on medication to control coccidial and worm infections (our birds have not been treated for over a year) .

8.
Can be used with the birds in the loft.

9.
No adverse affects on the birds have been noticed in our loft after regular weekly usage for over a year.

10.
No respiratory signs seen as a result of sprinkling Stalosan F in the loft.

11.
No adverse affects on the plumage.

The birds can still be fed on the floor without problems.



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#27 User is offline   bewted 

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Posted 17 September 2008 - 09:58 AM

THANK YOU VERY MUCH DOVESCOTE,,,VERY ENJOYABLE READING !!

#28 User is offline   DOVEScot 

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Posted 17 September 2008 - 10:38 AM

Vic said:

I will keep it quite short, but having been in consultation, with some vets over a year or two. I am led to believe that this is a serious, uncontrolable disease that can be within most of our birds without us knowing its  presence. The so called carriers, show no signs of sickness
  whatsoever, perfect looking, but pass it on when breeding commences.  This could even be part of the reason, why ybs are dropping like flies. Any comments most welcome.    


NAW!!!
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Posted 17 September 2008 - 10:54 AM

can it be stoped yes,  if you stop the mice  rats and strays  entering your loft,  its a tough ask,  but inoculation is the only way to control it, if not the birds are exposed to it in the baskets when held over ;) and this aint worth having  :X

#30 User is offline   DOVEScot 

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Posted 17 September 2008 - 11:14 AM

bigda said:

can it be stoped yes,  if you stop the mice  rats and strays  entering your loft,  its a tough ask,  but inoculation is the only way to control it, if not the birds are exposed to it in the baskets when held over ;) and this aint worth having  :X


Yes I agree you can control it but you will never stop it as it is rife in so many different forms :-/
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#31 User is online   Roland 

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Posted 17 September 2008 - 14:40 PM

sammy said:

can remember back to the time when paramyxo came to these shore think it was back 82/83 and channel racing got suspended through ,the then shu held a meeting in motherwell civic centre to discuss the problem of para and held a vote to make it compulsary any how the shu vet at the time was a think called a guy called macrae and he stated then that when pigeons take para then in 99% of cases salmonella/paratyphoid is present and explained that to keep para at bay we should vaccinate them so what happens to the salmonella at this point it dont just dissapear ,in my understanding of vaccination is it builds up anti bodies in the blood to enable the pigeon to fight it of dont mean to say it wont take and in a way that might not be visible to the naked eye and remember when a foreign body is given to any animal its own immune system starts to work and attack it leaving it vurnable to other diseases in my opinion salmonella ?? ;)



The first immunerisation is all important... why once a month for the first three months is apparently really needed.

Know a good flyer that sold a pair of stock birds age 5 and 7 years old that went to Australia.
Never raced or what not, just bred for Stock.
One jab.
Wasn't allowed in Aussie land as the vaccine was still very prevalent.
So long story short, I question the jab every year approach... and enhance the 3 times within their first threemonths.

Pigeons Interests ... before Fanciers ego's!

#32 User is offline   jimmy white 

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Posted 17 September 2008 - 15:08 PM

DOVEScot said:

Yes I agree you can control it but you will never stop it as it is rife in so many different forms :-/


yes i agree, this can be controlled to some extent, by keeping the loft rodent free as poss, i,e by leaving no grain around at all , even at this ,,you will still get the odd one or two at times , really a case of trying to keep the loft and surroundings as  rodent free as  is possible , but allthough rats and mice can be a very bad source for this desease, off course there are many other causes , i find ,as advised by my vet , that virkon s.  is another of the disenfectants , that have been approved by defra , i have found since using this i have had no desease at all [this covers all deseases] i honestly cant speak highly  enough of this ,and allthough i know that  any desease can creep in at any time , i have certainly had no problems since using this product, any questions about this product ,you can e,mail   biosecurity@gbc.dupont.com, or find out more about this product    www.virkons.com

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Posted 17 September 2008 - 15:41 PM

I have just replied by pm to two of our guys, offering advice, one of the guys having had a bad experience himself on the subject. I will let everybody know, the products that I have been advised to use, later on.      I was told previously,  that the only solution, (to save time and money) was a "full cull" procedure.  Fair enough, But what will happen when replacement birds share the same baskets as the carriers? Surely this is a no win situation, a vicious circle to say the least!

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Posted 17 September 2008 - 19:11 PM

Two things Vic; (1) your post infers that pigeons have no resistance against salmonella. If that were true, there'd be no pigeons, so some must have resistance bred into them - and some bred-out  or (mis)managed-out?

(2) Had picked up salmonella and e. coli were related. This is part of an article I'd copied to my computer and forgotten about.  :) Google brought it up.  :)

This is part of an article comes from notes taken during a seminar given by Dr. Steve Weir at the 1993 AU convention. Updated by Dr. Weir March 16 1999 For the I.F. home page. Dr. Weir is a small animal veterinarian in Catoosa Oklahoma. He has flown pigeons successfully for many years and helps pigeon flyers from around the country with health problems.

Paratyphoid: Salmonella causes the disease paratyphoid in pigeons. It is a bacterial infection that causes a multitude of possible symptoms including sudden death of apparently healthy birds of any age, joint infections causing a dropped wing or lameness, infertility in cocks and hens, diarrhea, weight loss, etc, etc.

E. coli: This is a related bacteria to Salmonella and PRODUCES THE EXACT SAME SYMPTOMS. It is much more common than salmonella and probably a lot of what people are diagnosing as salmonella based on symptoms alone is actually E. coli infection. You treat E. coli with antibiotics but you should have a culture and sensitivity run before you treat as this bug varies a lot in what drug kills it best. I have made vaccines for some lofts with chronic problems and helped them, but this is not usually needed. E. coli is a big secondary invader and birds that are stressed with worms, coccidia, canker, and other problems tend to be much more susceptible to it. If you have had E. coli problems in the past it is critical that you control all other disease problems to keep it from recurring.

Wasn't aware they could be confused like this?

#35 GuestVic_*

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Posted 18 September 2008 - 16:30 PM

Thanks IB and to the guys who have been in touch by pm. As I mentioned previously, these are some of the products that have been recommended to halt the progress of paratyphoid. I only hope this information may help somebody out. A 14 day treatment of Dicural worked wonders for one guy.  While another suggests using Parastop in tablet form along with Belgafox in the water. These last two two products can be obtained from D.Werdt. Thanks again. Vic.

#36 User is offline   Larry Lucas 

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Posted 18 September 2008 - 19:25 PM

Vic said:

I will keep it quite short, but having been in consultation, with some vets over a year or two. I am led to believe that this is a serious, uncontrolable disease that can be within most of our birds without us knowing its  presence. The so called carriers, show no signs of sickness
  whatsoever, perfect looking, but pass it on when breeding commences.  This could even be part of the reason, why ybs are dropping like flies. Any comments most welcome.    


Vic, yes, all lofts have paratyphoid/salmonella. Avian veterinarians here have demonstrated that you can actually eliminate the carrier state in pigeons by a full 14 days of Baytril in conjunction with Sal-Bac vaccination. Vaccination with Sal-Bac should take place about the 7th day of the treatment with Baytril -- not before. Baytril (Enrofloxacin) is the ONLY drug that will eliminate the carrier state of salmonella in pigeons. It can be controlled by a preseason round of something like Parastop followed by vaccination, but this will not eliminate the on-going carrier problem.


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Posted 18 September 2008 - 21:32 PM

Thanks Larry, I have always respected your opinions since the early pipa days. I will be sending you a pm in the very near future, because if I want "shut" of carriers,  What you say sounds good. Cheers, Vic.

#38 User is offline   jimmy white 

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Posted 18 September 2008 - 22:06 PM

Larry Lucas said:

Vic, yes, all lofts have paratyphoid/salmonella. Avian veterinarians here have demonstrated that you can actually eliminate the carrier state in pigeons by a full 14 days of Baytril in conjunction with Sal-Bac vaccination. Vaccination with Sal-Bac should take place about the 7th day of the treatment with Baytril -- not before. Baytril (Enrofloxacin) is the ONLY drug that will eliminate the carrier state of salmonella in pigeons. It can be controlled by a preseason round of something like Parastop followed by vaccination, but this will not eliminate the on-going carrier problem.


with due respect larry, this sounds good in eliminating the carrier state of paratyphoid in a pigeon [which could save a lot of pigeons and lesson a problem], but allthough my  question might seem  a bit silly, [its not meant to be :)] could this carrier state in the pigeon,, now [say] cured by baytrill and vaccination [sal-bac] , become a carrier again ?? at any other time ,,,,,  or once being a carrier and cured , will be immune to catching this again ??

#39 User is online   just ask me 

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Posted 18 September 2008 - 22:09 PM

jimmy white said:

with due respect larry, this sounds good in eliminating the carrier state of paratyphoid in a pigeon [which could save a lot of pigeons and lesson a problem], but allthough my  question might seem  a bit silly, [its not meant to be :)] could this carrier state in the pigeon,, now [say] cured by baytrill and vaccination [sal-bac] , become a carrier again ?? at any other time ,,,,,  or once being a carrier and cured , will be immune to catching this again ??


i also heard that u have to at least vaccinate for 4 year after the course of baytrill to cure it

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Posted 19 September 2008 - 00:53 AM

Larry Lucas said:

Vic, yes, all lofts have paratyphoid/salmonella.


Rather a sweeping statement that, Larry, given that salmonella generally is considered a pathogen, and a zoonotic one at that (ie an animal disease that can also cause illness and death in humans).

It is also considered not to be a normal gut inhabitant, so  given your statement, why e.g. have independant droppings tests of my own birds not shown salmonella infection? Is there a specific test for it? I also note no UK Pigeon Press adverts specifically offering salmonella tests for racing pigeons, due perhaps to there being no market need for it in the first place?

I do not recall its widespread presence in pigeons ever being reported on this Site either, and given that it is zoonotic, no widespread reports of pigeon fanciers becoming ill with it either, (I would expect at least a few cases) and these cases in turn (because they were zoonotic) would be picked up by our UK Health Protection Agencies, these in turn reporting to and sparking action by UK Animal Health Agencies, DEFRA etc.

Given that droppings may harbour a dangerous pathogen, what safety measures would you suggest for those on here who do their own droppings tests?



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