Has The Time Come To Stop

[JohnQuinn]

all we can hope is what ever it is thats going through the youngbirds will affect percy also but i cant see it thats something we need to sort but that will not happen no one wants to get off there backside and do something about it just talk p h on here about what we should do

 

Just about covers my point Watty.

But when you get a guy like Alan Jones who is up sitting 25mls away in the dark waiting for daybreak tae single up doos, timing them and if he disnae think they've put enough effort in they're straight back when he finishes his work that night to ensure they're as fit as possible for the up coming race. Absolutely no man puts fitter healthier birds In a race basket than him and he still hasn't seen a feather from Saturday's race.

So whilst there are definitely men putting sick birds away to races (Lan Fed refused to lib a basket of blatantly sick doos on Sunday due to how sick the birds were) there are 98% more send well trained healthy birds but aren't getting them or as our Fed race at the weekend highlighted men are sitting waiting all day for doos tae come fae 90mls.

But GUARANTEED not one thing will be done in a constructive effective way to combat the problem. So imo not racing ybs for a couple or three years MIGHT highlight something or might NOT, but it could be easily done and if nothing comes of it then some other measures could be looked at. But as you say talking P**h on here year in year out tae get it sorted out has done nothing and will continue to do nothing next year the year after and every other year. Men sending huge teams away and getting slaughtered are criticising the theme of this thread so what has to happen before THEY do somethibg about it or come up with a viable idea to try to address the issue.

 

 

[Delboy]

Going on walters theory im assuming the full of your fed Del must be riddled lol

 

lol. BOP as far as I'm concerned with our fed but I am all eyes and ears on Walters info. Scary stuff

[Arranview]

lol. BOP as far as I'm concerned with our fed but I am all eyes and ears on Walters info. Scary stuff

Definitely, would like to know who's racing and their birds are dying disgraceful imo

[eastcoaster]

Why is it not common knowledge that Lanarkshire brought birds back unfit for lib and what club are they from ,exactly what Walter said information not being shared .

[Froog]

Why is it not common knowledge that Lanarkshire brought birds back unfit for lib and what club are they from ,exactly what Walter said information not being shared .

Amazing the macs dont get pigeons eaten by hawks?, the problem is disease end of story.

[johno]

Has anyone ever questioned where raptors go on the weeks when returns are good. Do the raptors go on holiday?

[JohnQuinn]

Has anyone ever questioned where raptors go on the weeks when returns are good. Do the raptors go on holiday?

 

A canny remember the last time there was a yb race where returns were good. A couple of races when the losses were acceptable yes but good returns no. We have reached the point of saturation with peregrines. I think the lads who say they’re getting hit every 5-10mls en route home are overly optimistic, imo it’s more like every 3-5mls. It’s now the case if you send say 30 birds to a yb race and go to the club with your click an hour after timing in you’re doing well if you have more than half your birds home in that first hour. Then Nothing, no more than 1 or 2 returned when you’re away at the club then it’s the odd doo or two hours apart fir the rest of the day with 6-8-10 still out come dark.

That’s pretty much the pattern week in week out, even as pointed out by Paul Mac from the very first race, which to me is around 65mls. The pattern of returns or more to the point losses is the same every week in the yb program. Maybe better lib sites would give them a better run at it but not All lib sites are like Hexham yet the races turn out the very same.

Race 3 in our yb race program would easily have 6,500 birds on board, race 4 5,000 birds. The 1,500 drop is not all losses it’s guys putting some birds away that have had the first 3 races. This year race 3 had 3,850 and race 4 at the weekend there 1,650. Never in all my years in the game have the entries to these two races been so paltry and it’s the raptors who caused it.

A week past Sunday I sent 12 to Hexham and that morning tossed 13 from Forth, about 9 mls as the doo flies to me. I lost 4 birds from each. Got 6 from the race on the day, 5 of them home in 52 mins the other after 8pm that night. I got 8 from the toss, 5 came 2hrs after I libbed them (put them up 4,4&5) but the 5 weren’t the group of 5 I libbed together. Got another around 5pm and two more between 7:30 & 8pm, came together.

One more from the race next day and one in the Thursday, the final one from the toss came Wednesday with big talon holes under his wing and at his keel. If it’s got to this point during the yb program when the birds are being hit for education purposes and not for eating then why continue doing what we do at present that’s my question to everyone. As someone else pointed out if you keep doing the same you will keep getting the same result.

So let’s change it, I take on board that most will go down like snow aff a dyke in the first 5 or 6 races as yearlings but at least they’re getting to be yearlings and Percy has had nothing to play with during August and Sept the year before so there may well be less of them to attack our yearlings.

[johno]

People I know well had good racing and good returns from the first couple of YB races. Every year there are races with good returns. Delb0y had the first 49 in the Glasgow fed in a race no long ago. Excellent returns for a vast majority. South Lanarkshire have had races with near full returns recently. Clydebank racing controlled by Hotrod, have had excellent racing recently with near full returns.The proposition there is never any good racing with good returns does not stand up to scrutiny.

[Bobby4]

Amazing the macs dont get pigeons eaten by hawks?, the problem is disease end of story.

 

Sorry but the nacs do loose there birds to

[walterboswell59]

Why is it not common knowledge that Lanarkshire brought birds back unfit for lib and what club are they from ,exactly what Walter said information not being shared .

correct Colin and all the guys that phoned me looking for help that i cant give them are liars fanciers are in denial no one wants to say my birds are sick theres no shame in it we all get them including me this is something that disorientates the birds

and affects there balance makes them very dehydrated anyway good luck to the ones that think they can beat it the penny will eventually drop theres something wrong with there birds but by then it will be to late its a virus with no cure it has to run its course and can take more than a month to go through the loft killing as it goes i can name men from 5 different feds that have it right now one fed even said on basics that they were going to shorter races when asked why was it to give the guys with sick birds time to catch up the answer he got was exactly what more can i say

[JohnQuinn]

People I know well had good racing and good returns from the first couple of YB races. Every year there are races with good returns. Delb0y had the first 49 in the Glasgow fed in a race no long ago. Excellent returns for a vast majority. South Lanarkshire have had races with near full returns recently. Clydebank racing controlled by Hotrod, have had excellent racing recently with near full returns.The proposition there is never any good racing with good returns does not stand up to scrutiny.

 

That's contrary to what the Clydebank members told me. 2 of them have chucked it for the season because of the losses and those still racing have been losing birds hand over fist.

Tell me when was the last time you had a straightforward race with steady returns and all home in a couple of hours ??

[BIGJAMIE320]

sick birds should never be near a basket a club or anywhere anyone sending ill birds away are not caring about any other members birds hope these people get there birds sorted out as walter says there a few of them

[Paul Mac 31]

Sorry but the nacs do loose there birds to

 

 

Of course we take our fair share of hits and losses, probably more at times As we train more than 99% of fanciers. I lose more in training every year than racing, I took a big hit in 2016 with Percy, straight thru the batch at 12 miler,,, dropped 35 from 85, but the 50 that made it is what the last 4 years success was built on.

 

We maybe approach it differently than most, and maybe that reflects in our results, I’m trying too lose Youngsters, tested them over and over , I only want the best ones , so by the time racing comes the % of sh** is out my team,,, they go in all weathers all winds,, the best and smartest always come thru,,,

 

this year I took a hit at Lanark , a lot of guys know,,,, 4 baskets 3 home on time , all 26 hens missing all the last basket

4 reported, 2 hawked,,, tells me ,, sh** unlucky today Paul.

Wipe my tears Back for more tomorrow......

 

that’s been the same way since 1990’s , add in good stockmanship and investments , to the point where most of my Ybs contain more FED toppers than most clubs have ever achieved.... bred for the job.

( but that will all be luck,wind,and location)

 

 

This year guys that I personally know are really good doo men have got wiped out,,, in Scotland and England , for me it can only be Hawks

 

Personally in racing my returns are bout Same as every year...

Though I’m waiting on my big hit , going by the stories I here

 

Race 1. 68/62

Race 2. 58/58

Race 3. 60/53

Race 4. 51/46

 

My best young cocks are now stopped

All had 4 races , plenty road work , earned their perch .

 

 

Prob Send 30sh this week if all handling well and moult is good

 

 

Hawks are without a doubt the main issue,,,, but lazy fanciers and poor quality , unhealthy birds are also a factor.

 

 

Youngsters is a total reflection of the saying

“You only get out what you put inâ€

 

atb this week

Keep racing

[johno]

Steady races are reality. Look at Paul Macs post and returns. Delboy sent 63 and timed over forty in a few minutes. final returns were good.. I am referring to the Clydebank fanciers flying in races controlled by Hotrod. I am only trying to point out that taking only the losses caused by Raptors into the mix, many other factors are left out. The situation is much more complicated than Raptor problems on their own. Since pigeon racing started there have always been fanciers with losses.

[Bobby4]

Yes paul good points .the way i look at it yes the ybs are racing at a worse possible time as bop are concerned an yes ther will never be just one thing that causes our losses.but iff you switch over to your old birds .you have probably lost more fantastic pigeons than anyone.birds that you know should still be in your shed but are not.due to what reason .not because they wer ill or uneducated or bad race points why are they not home?

[JohnQuinn]

Steady races are reality. Look at Paul Macs post and returns. Delboy sent 63 and timed over forty in a few minutes. final returns were good.. I am referring to the Clydebank fanciers flying in races controlled by Hotrod. I am only trying to point out that taking only the losses caused by Raptors into the mix, many other factors are left out. The situation is much more complicated than Raptor problems on their own. Since pigeon racing started there have always been fanciers with losses.

 

I read Paul's post very carefully and he states he has taken big hits before. But more importantly he also points out what is an indisputable fact, he has better stock than, well just about any loft you care to compare his with in the UK or Europe wide. And Derek did exactly what you pointed out in that particular race but he so posted a few weeks back he had 70 away and only had 40 on the shift. He had 21 away at the weekend and got 2 on the shift from 160mls, I'm absolutely certain he does not find that acceptable because he works his doos hard to overcome these situations.

But you never answered my question, how is Your yb seson going and how many straightforward yb races have you had this year ??

[Bobby4]

A canny remember the last time there was a yb race where returns were good. A couple of races when the losses were acceptable yes but good returns no. We have reached the point of saturation with peregrines. I think the lads who say they’re getting hit every 5-10mls en route home are overly optimistic, imo it’s more like every 3-5mls. It’s now the case if you send say 30 birds to a yb race and go to the club with your click an hour after timing in you’re doing well if you have more than half your birds home in that first hour. Then Nothing, no more than 1 or 2 returned when you’re away at the club then it’s the odd doo or two hours apart fir the rest of the day with 6-8-10 still out come dark.

That’s pretty much the pattern week in week out, even as pointed out by Paul Mac from the very first race, which to me is around 65mls. The pattern of returns or more to the point losses is the same every week in the yb program. Maybe better lib sites would give them a better run at it but not All lib sites are like Hexham yet the races turn out the very same.

Race 3 in our yb race program would easily have 6,500 birds on board, race 4 5,000 birds. The 1,500 drop is not all losses it’s guys putting some birds away that have had the first 3 races. This year race 3 had 3,850 and race 4 at the weekend there 1,650. Never in all my years in the game have the entries to these two races been so paltry and it’s the raptors who caused it.

A week past Sunday I sent 12 to Hexham and that morning tossed 13 from Forth, about 9 mls as the doo flies to me. I lost 4 birds from each. Got 6 from the race on the day, 5 of them home in 52 mins the other after 8pm that night. I got 8 from the toss, 5 came 2hrs after I libbed them (put them up 4,4&5) but the 5 weren’t the group of 5 I libbed together. Got another around 5pm and two more between 7:30 & 8pm, came together.

One more from the race next day and one in the Thursday, the final one from the toss came Wednesday with big talon holes under his wing and at his keel. If it’s got to this point during the yb program when the birds are being hit for education purposes and not for eating then why continue doing what we do at present that’s my question to everyone. As someone else pointed out if you keep doing the same you will keep getting the same result.

So let’s change it, I take on board that most will go down like snow aff a dyke in the first 5 or 6 races as yearlings but at least they’re getting to be yearlings and Percy has had nothing to play with during August and Sept the year before so there may well be less of them to attack our yearlings.

Well said john 100% at least they are not lying in a perrigrines nest on the year off their birth .even just training them they'r still getting slaughtered.

[Paul Mac 31]

Yes paul good points .the way i look at it yes the ybs are racing at a worse possible time as bop are concerned an yes ther will never be just one thing that causes our losses.but iff you switch over to your old birds .you have probably lost more fantastic pigeons than anyone.birds that you know should still be in your shed but are not.due to what reason .not because they wer ill or uneducated or bad race points why are they not home?

 

Yeah 100% 9/10 when the good ones go missing it will be hawks,,wires,, etc etc ,,,, old birds was hard this year when you check the velocities, which suggests to me they are not clearing well at race points.... add in the Covid delay too,,,,but personally I was delighted with my own returns,, Not inc Gold cup,,, but there something new developed for me in the past 5 years,,, where if you don’t get them within the first 2 hours ,,, u tend not to see them,,, I put that down to hawks , then the domino effect of being hit to ground,, and other predators, like buzzards etc Come in to play.

 

As I say hawks are main cause without a doubt in my mind,,, but also, you can have fanciers

1. Not training as Ybs

2. Breeding of what’s left as old,,,sometimes these are just the survivors ,, hide and seek doos

3. That then leads to poorer quality bred each year, and uneducated late breds to compensate losses

4. Throw health issues, on top of 1,2,3 it’s a powder keg for poor racing

 

 

I’m not trying to come across as this is my way and it’s only right,, but I’d bet my life ,,,, don’t race youngsters,,I will ,,,the gap will double in size between leaders on a Saturday

 

 

I hope we can get something sorted within the Fed this year coming

We have to make it a priority of the new top table

 

All best mate

[Kyleakin Lofts]

Of course we take our fair share of hits and losses, probably more at times As we train more than 99% of fanciers. I lose more in training every year than racing, I took a big hit in 2016 with Percy, straight thru the batch at 12 miler,,, dropped 35 from 85, but the 50 that made it is what the last 4 years success was built on.

 

We maybe approach it differently than most, and maybe that reflects in our results, I’m trying too lose Youngsters, tested them over and over , I only want the best ones , so by the time racing comes the % of sh** is out my team,,, they go in all weathers all winds,, the best and smartest always come thru,,,

 

this year I took a hit at Lanark , a lot of guys know,,,, 4 baskets 3 home on time , all 26 hens missing all the last basket

4 reported, 2 hawked,,, tells me ,, sh** unlucky today Paul.

Wipe my tears Back for more tomorrow......

 

that’s been the same way since 1990’s , add in good stockmanship and investments , to the point where most of my Ybs contain more FED toppers than most clubs have ever achieved.... bred for the job.

( but that will all be luck,wind,and location)

 

 

This year guys that I personally know are really good doo men have got wiped out,,, in Scotland and England , for me it can only be Hawks

 

Personally in racing my returns are bout Same as every year...

Though I’m waiting on my big hit , going by the stories I here

 

Race 1. 68/62

Race 2. 58/58

Race 3. 60/53

Race 4. 51/46

 

My best young cocks are now stopped

All had 4 races , plenty road work , earned their perch .

 

 

Prob Send 30sh this week if all handling well and moult is good

 

 

Hawks are without a doubt the main issue,,,, but lazy fanciers and poor quality , unhealthy birds are also a factor.

 

 

Youngsters is a total reflection of the saying

“You only get out what you put inâ€

 

atb this week

Keep racing

 

Paul, would you say that in the same manner that the BOP terrorise the pigeons, they have also managed to terrorise the trainers? Because we are not training our YB's properly, we are adding to the confusion at the race point and flagging to the BOP that meals are available. Most are trying to keep YB's for the following year, you are trying to lose them. The quality within your loft is without doubt. The quality of these YB's we keep is very much in doubt.

 

This point highlights the need to train and test our pigeons so that we improve the quality.

 

Walter, whilst health issues are without doubt a factor, you train your pigeons hard, just like Paul. The quality in your loft is without doubt.

 

Whilst health, lack of training, other human errors are factors, I would say that these factors have always been there to some extent.

 

Not to minimise these factors, but John is addressing the BOP problem. It seems clear that talking about it is a constant thing come this time of year, but action is never taken. John's suggestion flies in the face of your training regime and would therefore seem to have the effect of dropping the standard of quality within our lofts and for this reason, it will never happen, leastways, not in a blanket fashion.

 

Derek Hay raised the point of a "think tank" to look at the ways we can overcome this problem. I would suggest that this is the only way forward. Preferably on a National scale, but certainly on a regional scale. This "think tank" would have to be hand chosen and safe in the security of anonimity. There findings and discussions would also have to be kept secure until they managed to reach their final conclusion.

[Kyleakin Lofts]

Paul, your previous post just answered this. Thanks. Every day is a school day and with knowledge, eyes are opened.

[Paul Mac 31]

Paul, would you say that in the same manner that the BOP terrorise the pigeons, they have also managed to terrorise the trainers? Because we are not training our YB's properly, we are adding to the confusion at the race point and flagging to the BOP that meals are available. Most are trying to keep YB's for the following year, you are trying to lose them. The quality within your loft is without doubt. The quality of these YB's we keep is very much in doubt.

 

This point highlights the need to train and test our pigeons so that we improve the quality.

 

Walter, whilst health issues are without doubt a factor, you train your pigeons hard, just like Paul. The quality in your loft is without doubt.

 

Whilst health, lack of training, other human errors are factors, I would say that these factors have always been there to some extent.

 

Not to minimise these factors, but John is addressing the BOP problem. It seems clear that talking about it is a constant thing come this time of year, but action is never taken. John's suggestion flies in the face of your training regime and would therefore seem to have the effect of dropping the standard of quality within our lofts and for this reason, it will never happen, leastways, not in a blanket fashion.

 

Derek Hay raised the point of a "think tank" to look at the ways we can overcome this problem. I would suggest that this is the only way forward. Preferably on a National scale, but certainly on a regional scale. This "think tank" would have to be hand chosen and safe in the security of anonimity. There findings and discussions would also have to be kept secure until they managed to reach their final conclusion.

 

 

To an extent yip , If a guy has 30 Ybs and gets whacked at 12 miles , drops 10,,,, no doubt he will be shitting himself to put them back in a basket. It then comes down to mental strength of both bird and fancier,,, the hardest thing in pigeons to teach is discipline,, to the bird ,, but most of all to the fancier,,,, I was unbelievably fortunate to have who I would regard as the best at it too teach me at a young age.... and just like training Ybs what we learn as kids never leaves us.

 

My theory is a larger % of my birds break from the liberation site, which in turn leads to better returns For me, only IF and it’s a big IF ,, if leaders are left alone,,, our results go hand in hand to back that theory up... If the main batch stays 5 mins longer not only are they beaten excessively,, but I would say they are now prime target,,, big batch or little batch I’d reckon Percy will go for the best odds...

 

 

Unless the top flyers across the country get total control of the sport, I’m afraid it’s a ticking time bomb,,,,, prime example is what mark Gilbert and co have done for BICC,,,

 

But again it’s all political and personal agendas , instead of racing and birds being put first

[johno]

I do not keep pigeons now. I do not play football now or back horses regularly either. That does not disqualify me from having an opinion. You posted. I still have over forty years of experience in pigeons. That will stay with me till I die. " A canny remember the last time there was a yb race where returns were good " quoted from one of your posts. This post of yours now points out that there have been good races recently.Once again I will say blaming Raptors for all the losses stops us looking at other possible causes of losses in the pigeon fancy. Until everything is considered the situation will not improve.

[Michael J Burden]

The trouble with not racing ybs is this. you will loose the ones you should have lost or identified as not worthy a perch over the winter as yearlings. Loose them as ybs not as yearlings. Those missing birds look like world beaters before you send and never see them again. Those that dont get lost as ybs are fed watered and scrapped out all winter which can be very sole destroying. Losses are inevitable and in some cases wished for, loose the rubbish.

 

The only positive thing of not racing ybs is the good ones yet to be identified are not put under pressure to early.

MJB

[JohnQuinn]

I do not keep pigeons now. I do not play football now or back horses regularly either. That does not disqualify me from having an opinion. You posted. I still have over forty years of experience in pigeons. That will stay with me till I die. " A canny remember the last time there was a yb race where returns were good " quoted from one of your posts. This post of yours now points out that there have been good races recently.Once again I will say blaming Raptors for all the losses stops us looking at other possible causes of losses in the pigeon fancy. Until everything is considered the situation will not improve.

 

Naw it disnae disqualify ye fae having an opinion but it disqualifies me from entertaining any more of your posts on the subject.

You've nae birds yer no sitting aw day waiting on birds arriving , yer no geting birds back ripped to pieces, you're no at a club on a Fiday night handling birds through but ye know theres health problems associated way the losses but you Are very very selective on who you're drawing your argument on.

Ask another 20 fanciers how they've got on and you will find your two examples are very far from the true picture of week to week yb racing. Then come back on and tell me whats causing the problems for the VAST majority of fanciers throughout the UK. Even the men you chose to highlight accept the peregrines are the cause of the problems. Not exclusively but I never at any time said the losses were exclusive to the peregrines but ill say they are more than 90% of the cause.

[dkj]

For me, 1/ well bred pigeons 2/natural immunity 3/ fit pigeons be it by road training or loft fitness And mentally right,

And fed right for race also

Everybody who handles pigeons on the Friday night can pick the lofts that are going to be at the front. In most cases

Yes hawks play a large part in the race. But the same people are winning

If no young bird racing. The peregrine would just come to the lofts for a easy meal ( I have had them at my lofts)

For me it’s Its the same guys winning and have best returns, I also think sprint pigeons win but in a funny race can also lose a lot more as distance pigeons just plod in with better % of returns, or this happens in my loft

My Welsh pigeons pigeons on a good day hammer my distance pigeons if they get a bad start they still win but I lose a high % of them

The distance pigeons only score in short races when they have a bad start with good returns ( mind this is only in my loft that I have observed over the years)

Small convoys have a high % of getting hit from 100 miles + it’s down to luck if you don’t get hit

Most bad races are when they are getting hit at the start. Liberations

Most folk talk about what needs to happen. And very few do something about it