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I will keep it quite short, but having been in consultation, with some vets over a year or two. I am led to believe that this is a serious, uncontrolable disease that can be within most of our birds without us knowing its  presence. The so called carriers, show no signs of sickness
  whatsoever, perfect looking, but pass it on when breeding commences.  This could even be part of the reason, why ybs are dropping like flies. Any comments most welcome.    

have said this lots before i put it down to the main reason for the loss of birds some reckon it can be spotted but i think it could be a secondary infection[loss for a better word] think it can be vacinatted againist

Quoted from Vic

I will keep it quite short, but having been in consultation, with some vets over a year or two. I am led to believe that this is a serious, uncontrolable disease that can be within most of our birds without us knowing its  presence. The so called carriers, show no signs of sickness
  whatsoever, perfect looking, but pass it on when breeding commences.  This could even be part of the reason, why ybs are dropping like flies. Any comments most welcome.    

vic as u know this is a posh word for salmonella.
most will look at the name and think oh god wots that?
but its most probably visited most lofts over a period of time and treated for summut else.
i think there is a need to treat for it b4 breeding commences,along with other treatments given at that time of the year.
i believe rats and mice carry it and we all know how they get about so easily!
i think one way that it gets into the loft is by birds picking up outside the lofts where rats/mice have urinated there.
and how many of us allow our birds to do that?

sal-bac is a vaccine for parataphoid and poeple are saying it does the trick

Quoted from strapper

vic as u know this is a posh word for salmonella.
most will look at the name and think oh god wots that?
but its most probably visited most lofts over a period of time and treated for summut else.
i think there is a need to treat for it b4 breeding commences,along with other treatments given at that time of the year.
i believe rats and mice carry it and we all know how they get about so easily!
i think one way that it gets into the loft is by birds picking up outside the lofts where rats/mice have urinated there.
and how many of us allow our birds to do that?

If it is the fancy name for salmonella it is present in a lot of species including ourselves, there are test results that show it present in a lot places including hospitals and computer key boards.
Humans can catch it and be rid of it, they can also be carriers for life in some cases

when paratyphoid hits you can expect to loose many birds not many to start with but as time goes on you will find some more going down mostly it will hit the hens you can find them trailing a wing and going light some will die then you will go to the loft one day and for no reason find a cock dead that had been out flying the day before it seems to go on from season to season even in pigeons that dont fly out keep a eye out for rats, mice, check your feeding feeding in dry clean places clean or lofts that have deep litter it is all the same when it hits it is too late.

i think it is best to keep all food in big plastic or metal bins as rats and mice are everywhere.

Be wary also of wild birds. A few years ago I had about thirty tumblers. I was also very keen on making sure wild birds had plenty to eat. I fed wild birds in feeders in the garden. My pigeons picked around under the feeders and came down with salmonella. I am pretty certain they picked it up from the wild birds in this way. It killed a third of them. I still feed the wild birds but the feeders are nowhere near my loft. I am now extra vigilant and always keep pigeons away from any contact of any kind with wild birds.

can i add..some believe that giving probiotic yoghurt helps to prevent salmonella, it doesnt!

Hi

Is salmonella and Paratyphoid the same. I dont think so salmonella is the causitive agent and paratyphoid is the outcome. Pigeons have two varieties of salmonella both specific to pigeons. Once birds become carriers then a problem arises the only way to eradicate it is to cull what shows signs and we know this will not happen. Rats and mice have been around our birds for years and there is now way on this earth you can exclude mice from a pigeon loft unless you have a totally built in loft which would not be condusive to keeping pigeons. Something has changed this year that is for sure not too sure if all the birds lost this year are "sick" birds.

Just my thoughts.

If you watch Keeping pigeons healthy by Armand Scheers he states paratyphoid is a "Winter" disease hence why they are treated for salmonella before breeding. Dont forget Salmonella is a bacteria and the key is good sanitation and the best for this has to be Virkon S as it will destroy salmonella

I have seen pigeons treated and vaccinated (twice) against parathyphoid still contract it months later.
Signs to look for are
1. Bad moult blood quills
2. Bad Hatch, dead in shell, babies dying in nest.
3. Dropped floppy wing.

Only one cure for parathyphoid i'm afraid imo

Quoted from johnny11

Hi

Is salmonella and Paratyphoid the same. I dont think so salmonella is the causitive agent and paratyphoid is the outcome. Pigeons have two varieties of salmonella both specific to pigeons. Once birds become carriers then a problem arises the only way to eradicate it is to cull what shows signs and we know this will not happen. Rats and mice have been around our birds for years and there is now way on this earth you can exclude mice from a pigeon loft unless you have a totally built in loft which would not be condusive to keeping pigeons. Something has changed this year that is for sure not too sure if all the birds lost this year are "sick" birds.

Just my thoughts.

If you watch Keeping pigeons healthy by Armand Scheers he states paratyphoid is a "Winter" disease hence why they are treated for salmonella before breeding. Dont forget Salmonella is a bacteria and the key is good sanitation and the best for this has to be Virkon S as it will destroy salmonella

good product is virkon i use this myself....i spray it a few times a year throughout my lofts.

Quoted from strapper

can i add..some believe that giving probiotic yoghurt helps to prevent salmonella, it doesnt!

As I understand it, anything that contains "good bacteria" such as probiotic live yoghurt, needs to be stuffed into the birds big style.  This lines the gut with the good guys, sometimes multi layered, which stops the bad bacteria (salmonella), getting a hold.  This is why some people like to keep y/bs' on deep litter, cos' the droppings contain lots of good bacteria.  I also understand that some poultry men spray day old chicks with good bacteria, which is then pecked by the chicks, once again lining the gut.

just remembered...salmonella has similar symptoms to paramyxo.,...as discussed in a recent post on this site.

salmonella can affect pigeons in different ways. It can invade the intestines, the joints, organs in general, and the nervous system. It is the symptoms we can see when it has invaded a pigeons joints - causing inflamation lameness and drooping wings - which we describe as paratyphoid.

When these are the symtoms the disease is easy to identify. But if the disease takes any or all of the other possible courses it can be confused with a host of other pigeon illnesses.

Good post Tony, a timely reminder that there is no such thing as 'a' anything, including salmonella, but many different strains of it, possibly ranging from safe to deadly.

And as with vaccination, a safe dose will immunise against deadly.

Much the same as e-coli. The one to bother about is 0157.

Quoted from Vic

I will keep it quite short, but having been in consultation, with some vets over a year or two. I am led to believe that this is a serious, uncontrolable disease that can be within most of our birds without us knowing its  presence. The so called carriers, show no signs of sickness
  whatsoever, perfect looking, but pass it on when breeding commences.  This could even be part of the reason, why ybs are dropping like flies. Any comments most welcome.    

having read all the very good posts on this, my beleive is that this desease [as in many deseases ,many types] is the most serious ,often ,unseen desease in pigeons , even a droppings test ,may not give you an accurate result . probably one of the few deseases that can even spread inside the egg, usually resulting in" dead in the shell" but some do hatch , these are actually born carriers , other cariers can be birds that have  contracted this desease , mostly due to mice and rats infestations , i,e a bird that may have a drooped wing [having no injury] just a classic example , where , im afraid  a lot of fanciers will swear blind "it must have hurt its wing " this bird ,if not put down ,should be thoroghly tested by a good avian vet ,,,however to go on to vics question ,, could this be the reason for yb losses in my opinion i would say this could be just one PART of it, as i think there are many reasons, but paratyphoid ,like many deseases will mutate  and change over time , and quite possibly play a PART in the loss in yb,s , in being a" serious and uncontrolable desease" my thoughts are, this can be controlled ,to a certain extent, by loft hygeine ,by having  birds tested on a regular basis , rather than be treated willy nilly , which will make any desease mutate,  and a far strickter " selection"made to pigeons in any loft .,,as far as yb losses are concerned my thoughts are there are many reasons and like a big jig saw puzzle ,this could be one part

jimmy , very good point there ,( IN THE EGG ) dead in shell / black eggs , COCCI will also invade the forming egg if the count is big enough , first thing we think off is the old SAM & ELLA , when it could be cocci doing the dirty deed , the cocci opens the back door to to just about any bacterial infection going , when the count get's high , iam just going by what i have seen in my own loft over the last 25 odd year's ,( IB ) he may be able to put some flesh on the bones of this one

Strptococcus will also cause death inside the egg. But how many report a poor hatch and then still lose lots of young birds?

John

Regarding vaccination for paratyphus . You must make sure that you have given your birds a course of treatment to clear the infection BEFORE you vaccinate them. You should not vaccinate infected birds.

i remember a few pigeon forums at the start of this breeding season saying there young were dying in the nest blaming the nest felts as the cause
maybe it was paratyphoid/salmonella as the cause

Vic has raised this issue several times. You cannot attribute wholesale losses to a condition / disease / bacterial infection that you have not first established exists in the general racing pigeon population. I have not heard that racing pigeons are endemic carriers of salmonella and I would be very surprised if they were, because humans can catch it too, and it is a Notifiable disease. DEFRA and the Scottish, Welsh and Irish Animal Health Departments would be on it like a ton of bricks, especially if an outbreak occurred near any poultry farm. I am still awaiting a post from anyone giving current UK statistics of salmonella infections in racing pigeons, or stating categorically where in the UK and when these ‘repeated’ endemic outbreaks occurred.

Other issues raised in the thread also concern me. Forget ‘Salmonella’ and think instead about ‘disease’. We and are our pigeons are surrounded by potential disease-causing stuff 24/7. We have two things to protect us; our basic hygiene and our internal and external ‘skins’ which form a barrier shutting everything out.

So we keep ourselves ‘clean’, and our environment ‘clean’. There is also natural cleaners in the environment, and some live on our skins too. As long as there are enough of them there, and there is no break in the skin, we are safe. It is when a break occurs and this first line of defence is breached allowing anything into the bloodstream (and access to any part of the body) that disease is a real possibility.

So practice good hygiene, and help the pigeon maintain its immune system and it will do the rest. The gut wall is part of that immune system and one of the largest areas of internal skin. It is covered with mucous, and gazillions of bacteria which you want to flourish. Not only do they secrete natural antibiotics which kills other bacteria, they help in our and the birds' digestion. So the more the merrier because that will also crowd everything else out, and if it can’t get near the gut wall, it can’t get through and into the bloodstream and can't cause bother. Any antibiotic or antimicrobial (anything artificial we give to the birds to kill any form of life) will kill these 'friendly bacteria' in their zillions. On the other hand, give any probiotic including live yoghurt, and that will give them a boost. Think of a probiotic as a multi-vaccine, and consign antibiotic use in pigeons to history.

can remember back to the time when paramyxo came to these shore think it was back 82/83 and channel racing got suspended through ,the then shu held a meeting in motherwell civic centre to discuss the problem of para and held a vote to make it compulsary any how the shu vet at the time was a think called a guy called macrae and he stated then that when pigeons take para then in 99% of cases salmonella/paratyphoid is present and explained that to keep para at bay we should vaccinate them so what happens to the salmonella at this point it dont just dissapear ,in my understanding of vaccination is it builds up anti bodies in the blood to enable the pigeon to fight it of dont mean to say it wont take and in a way that might not be visible to the naked eye and remember when a foreign body is given to any animal its own immune system starts to work and attack it leaving it vurnable to other diseases in my opinion salmonella ??

All Good replies guys.  But no fancier anywhere, will ever stop rodents from having a free run during darkness, be it within or outside your  lofts, they are nocturnal afterall, and do their business  during the night.  Will come back later, CHAMPIONSHIP HIGHLIGHTS LOOMING!    

http://www.wiseharmon.com/Stalosan_e/stalosan/poultry/articles.htm
Stalosan F for pigeons.
Stalosan F is one of the best-kept secrets from the pigeon fancier. I first started working with it in the intensive poultry world and quickly realised it also had an application for my pigeons. It is a unique powder disinfectant that is ideal for use as a loft powder being able to dry up damp patches, reduce smells and kill infectious organisms. Laboratory studies have shown that it will kill paramyxovirus, E.coli, salmonella, coccidia and worm eggs.
In this article I would like to review the background to disease problems and detail the trial work that has been completed with Stalosan F.

The Problem - sudden rapid build ups of infection

Young birds and old birds are more susceptible to infections. The mixed age groups that is the normal way for keeping the racing pigeon ensures that infection is present at low and inapparent levels throughout the year.

However, at specific times of the year this may change, most notably in the spring. The dampness, warmer days and the stress of breeding and rearing youngsters can be associated with a rapid build up of infection that results in disease.

The most familiar will be the respiratory (the "snots"), intestinal (coccidiosis) and mortality ("young bird sickness") problems that beset the youngster.

Survival of infection

The ability of infectious organisms to survive and develop in the environment varies with the particular organism.

The majority (viruses, bacteria, mycoplasma and Chlamydia) merely survive in droppings and respiratory exudates until they enter another susceptible pigeon.

Coccidial oocysts and worm eggs must undergo further development before they are able to successfully infect another bird.

The huge numbers of infectious organisms that may be present in one dropping - in excess of 20,000 coccidial oocysts to 100's of millions of bacteria and viruses, is the reason for their success.




Spread of infection from bird to bird


Infection is spread from bird to bird by many routes.
1.
Through the air - mycoplasma

2.
Through the water - E.coli

3.
Through the droppings - coccidia, worms.

4.
Through crop feeding - canker

5.
Through fighting - pigeon pox

6.
Through handling



If you can find a way to reduce that cross-infection then you have a good chance of preventing disease problems. Stalosan's safety factor allows the fancier to achieve that control.

Why does disease occur

Disease is the outward sign associated with uncontrolled infection. Your birds may become infected and affected without showing signs of disease. There are many factors involved that determine whether or not disease occurs. Some of these are listed below:-



1.
How infectious is the organism i.e. does it take one or many thousands of organisms to initiate disease.

2.
The level of environmental contamination.

3.
The humidity and temperature in the loft.

4.
The number of birds in each section.



The impact of disease

Disease can have varying effects from the annoying to the disastrous. Breeding performance can suffer, viability and growth of the young can be affected, feed and water intake is often reduced and performance, almost inevitably, will suffer. It goes without saying that there is also a cost implication to disease either in the form of replacement costs, treatment costs or additional rearing costs.

How Stalosan F works

Stalosan works as a disinfectant, killing many types of virus including parmyxoviruses, bacteria such as E.coli and Salmonella spp., mycoplasmas, coccidia and worm eggs. It also acts as a powerful drying agent and works to reduce the levels of ammonia and sulphur gases in the loft. All the key areas in loft management. We have trialled the product in our own lofts for nearly a year ( my partner Fred will not be without it now). Over this period I have regularly tested the dropping and the loft area for bacterial levels , coccidial oocysts and carried out regular worm egg counts. There is no doubt that regular use of Stalosan has maintained uniformly low levels ( less than 1000 oocysts/g faeces and no worm eggs ). As a result we have had fewer problems and had to spend less on medication. Our lofts are drier and smell much better and my colleague Fred is on the blower if we look like running out.



The benefits of using Stalosan F

1.
Dries up damp patches on the floor from watery droppings and spilt water

2.
Leaves a covering of powder over all the surfaces that the pigeons walk and perch on.

3.
Helps keep the atmosphere smelling fresher.

4.
Persists for several days to a week after it has been used regularly.

5.
Keeps the pigeons feet drier and cleaner.

6.
Reduces the challenge from infectious organisms particularly coccidia and worms.

7.
Reduces the reliance on medication to control coccidial and worm infections (our birds have not been treated for over a year) .

8.
Can be used with the birds in the loft.

9.
No adverse affects on the birds have been noticed in our loft after regular weekly usage for over a year.

10.
No respiratory signs seen as a result of sprinkling Stalosan F in the loft.

11.
No adverse affects on the plumage.

The birds can still be fed on the floor without problems.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH DOVESCOTE,,,VERY ENJOYABLE READING !!

Quoted from Vic

I will keep it quite short, but having been in consultation, with some vets over a year or two. I am led to believe that this is a serious, uncontrolable disease that can be within most of our birds without us knowing its  presence. The so called carriers, show no signs of sickness
  whatsoever, perfect looking, but pass it on when breeding commences.  This could even be part of the reason, why ybs are dropping like flies. Any comments most welcome.    

NAW!!!

can it be stoped yes,  if you stop the mice  rats and strays  entering your loft,  its a tough ask,  but inoculation is the only way to control it, if not the birds are exposed to it in the baskets when held over and this aint worth having  

Quoted from bigda

can it be stoped yes,  if you stop the mice  rats and strays  entering your loft,  its a tough ask,  but inoculation is the only way to control it, if not the birds are exposed to it in the baskets when held over and this aint worth having  

Yes I agree you can control it but you will never stop it as it is rife in so many different forms

Quoted from sammy

can remember back to the time when paramyxo came to these shore think it was back 82/83 and channel racing got suspended through ,the then shu held a meeting in motherwell civic centre to discuss the problem of para and held a vote to make it compulsary any how the shu vet at the time was a think called a guy called macrae and he stated then that when pigeons take para then in 99% of cases salmonella/paratyphoid is present and explained that to keep para at bay we should vaccinate them so what happens to the salmonella at this point it dont just dissapear ,in my understanding of vaccination is it builds up anti bodies in the blood to enable the pigeon to fight it of dont mean to say it wont take and in a way that might not be visible to the naked eye and remember when a foreign body is given to any animal its own immune system starts to work and attack it leaving it vurnable to other diseases in my opinion salmonella ??

The first immunerisation is all important... why once a month for the first three months is apparently really needed.

Know a good flyer that sold a pair of stock birds age 5 and 7 years old that went to Australia.
Never raced or what not, just bred for Stock.
One jab.
Wasn't allowed in Aussie land as the vaccine was still very prevalent.
So long story short, I question the jab every year approach... and enhance the 3 times within their first threemonths.

Quoted from DOVEScot

Yes I agree you can control it but you will never stop it as it is rife in so many different forms

yes i agree, this can be controlled to some extent, by keeping the loft rodent free as poss, i,e by leaving no grain around at all , even at this ,,you will still get the odd one or two at times , really a case of trying to keep the loft and surroundings as  rodent free as  is possible , but allthough rats and mice can be a very bad source for this desease, off course there are many other causes , i find ,as advised by my vet , that virkon s.  is another of the disenfectants , that have been approved by defra , i have found since using this i have had no desease at all [this covers all deseases] i honestly cant speak highly  enough of this ,and allthough i know that  any desease can creep in at any time , i have certainly had no problems since using this product, any questions about this product ,you can e,mail   biosecurity@gbc.dupont.com, or find out more about this product    http://www.virkons.com

I have just replied by pm to two of our guys, offering advice, one of the guys having had a bad experience himself on the subject. I will let everybody know, the products that I have been advised to use, later on.      I was told previously,  that the only solution, (to save time and money) was a "full cull" procedure.  Fair enough, But what will happen when replacement birds share the same baskets as the carriers? Surely this is a no win situation, a vicious circle to say the least!

Two things Vic; (1) your post infers that pigeons have no resistance against salmonella. If that were true, there'd be no pigeons, so some must have resistance bred into them - and some bred-out  or (mis)managed-out?

(2) Had picked up salmonella and e. coli were related. This is part of an article I'd copied to my computer and forgotten about.   Google brought it up.  

This is part of an article comes from notes taken during a seminar given by Dr. Steve Weir at the 1993 AU convention. Updated by Dr. Weir March 16 1999 For the I.F. home page. Dr. Weir is a small animal veterinarian in Catoosa Oklahoma. He has flown pigeons successfully for many years and helps pigeon flyers from around the country with health problems.

Paratyphoid: Salmonella causes the disease paratyphoid in pigeons. It is a bacterial infection that causes a multitude of possible symptoms including sudden death of apparently healthy birds of any age, joint infections causing a dropped wing or lameness, infertility in cocks and hens, diarrhea, weight loss, etc, etc.

E. coli: This is a related bacteria to Salmonella and PRODUCES THE EXACT SAME SYMPTOMS. It is much more common than salmonella and probably a lot of what people are diagnosing as salmonella based on symptoms alone is actually E. coli infection. You treat E. coli with antibiotics but you should have a culture and sensitivity run before you treat as this bug varies a lot in what drug kills it best. I have made vaccines for some lofts with chronic problems and helped them, but this is not usually needed. E. coli is a big secondary invader and birds that are stressed with worms, coccidia, canker, and other problems tend to be much more susceptible to it. If you have had E. coli problems in the past it is critical that you control all other disease problems to keep it from recurring.

Wasn't aware they could be confused like this?

Thanks IB and to the guys who have been in touch by pm. As I mentioned previously, these are some of the products that have been recommended to halt the progress of paratyphoid. I only hope this information may help somebody out. A 14 day treatment of Dicural worked wonders for one guy.  While another suggests using Parastop in tablet form along with Belgafox in the water. These last two two products can be obtained from D.Werdt. Thanks again. Vic.

Quoted from Vic

I will keep it quite short, but having been in consultation, with some vets over a year or two. I am led to believe that this is a serious, uncontrolable disease that can be within most of our birds without us knowing its  presence. The so called carriers, show no signs of sickness
  whatsoever, perfect looking, but pass it on when breeding commences.  This could even be part of the reason, why ybs are dropping like flies. Any comments most welcome.    

Vic, yes, all lofts have paratyphoid/salmonella. Avian veterinarians here have demonstrated that you can actually eliminate the carrier state in pigeons by a full 14 days of Baytril in conjunction with Sal-Bac vaccination. Vaccination with Sal-Bac should take place about the 7th day of the treatment with Baytril -- not before. Baytril (Enrofloxacin) is the ONLY drug that will eliminate the carrier state of salmonella in pigeons. It can be controlled by a preseason round of something like Parastop followed by vaccination, but this will not eliminate the on-going carrier problem.