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Another lone voice in the wilderness, Tony. I believe you are spot-on in your thinking, because we already have a vaccination 'warning' that we should be reading every year that features roughly the same circumstances - Paramyxo vaccine and maternal antibodies - and Colombovac's instruction not to vaccinate youngsters under 3 weeks old because the presence of existing antibodies will prevent the vaccine taking hold.
Once challenged, the bird will have both antibodies and more importantly, an immune memory which means that it will mount an enhanced reponse to that particular organism the next time it meets it. This theory that Baytril will clear existing paratyphoid and vaccination will render the bird immune to further attacks therefore fails 'the basic biology test'. As you say, if the bird already has been exposed to paratyphoid, then it already has the antibodies and the immune memory to handle another paratyphoid attack, and vaccination is therefore a complete waste of time and money.
Johny11 mentioned Immunoglobulins. These are antibodies and the pigeon has 3 types: IgA, IgY and IgM. Sufficient to say that all of them are passed by the hen to her youngsters in her egg, IgY in the yolk, and the others in the 'white'. IgA is also passed by both parents in their crop milk. IgA is present in all the bird's secretions e.g. the tears, saliva and all the mucous linings of all the various membranes. Larry Lucas mentioned Avian flu; according to Dr Erhardt Kaleta, advisor to German Homing Union, IgA kills that virus too and the pigeon having it within its first line of defence is probably one of the main reasons for its resistance to AI.
And then we come to the 'carrier' state. Well the first theory that goes 'pop' must be the carrier responsible for dead in shell. If the hen is a paratyphoid carrier and immune to the disease, then she is also passing on antibodies to protect both her egg and her youngster against it.
I don't pretend to know all the ins and outs of the 'carrier state', but I believe we do already have at least 2 'carrier' states in pigeons that are actually recommended by vets. Both of them have been mentioned many times on the forum: trichomonas and cocci. A background presence of these organisms keeps the immune system fettled and is the equivalent of vaccinating the pigeon against more serious strains, and so their presence is both harmless to the bird and prevents full-blown disease.
So the question is: is the same true of salmonella?
Actually, current recommendation is for birds to be vaccinated for Paramyxo while still in the nest because of the pandemic nature of Circovirus. Vaccination in the nest is not recommended for Paratyphoid as the vaccine is not as benign. Manufacturers at times offer label advice (for that is what it is) to cover themselves legally -- not necessarily offering the best medical procedure in that label advice. Fact. Ask any practicing veterinarian. And, with respect, your observations about antibodies and subsequent challenge related to ST v. C misses the point. In the case of ST v. C it does not matter that antibodies are developed after exposure: what matters is that many of those same birds with those antibodies do indeed become carriers/hosts of the bacteria. Much like herpes virus in humans, it goes dormant at the cellular level only to surface again when the bird is stressed in some manner. They will not show overt signs of the disease, but they will shed the bacteria through feces and mucosal tissues infecting other birds, often resulting in septacemia in the younger pigeons and in a few older birds -- especially when Circovirus is also present, which these days must always be considered as part of the analysis.
Your observation that eliminating a carrier state fails "basic biology" is misplaced as it does not take into account the manner in which ST bacteria function after the bird is initially challenged. A kind of ad hominum approach to bacteriology in this case would be a mistake. The process of using Baytril (Enrofloxacin) to clear the carrier state of ST v. C has been proven repeatedly in clinical and ad hoc studies. While this procedure does not carry a 100% guarantee, it is effective. A simple Google search will turn up more than a few published studies if you are interested and do not have access to journals in a university veterinary library. Or email Dr. Gordon Chalmers in Canada, Dr. Wim Peters in South Africa, or Dr. Rob Marshall in Australia. They probably won't mind answering your questions about ST, the carrier state, and the process I have described.
Sorry guys to keep rabbiting on. But, nearing the end of my tether! Continuing the posting.................... I have recently been told, that a virus infection has been running rife on the continent for the last eighteen months or so, producing similar symptoms, akin to Paratyphoid. The prescribed cure being, Cyper Floxin 200 along with Tromexin. I feel that I have reached the crossroads after a long and arduous journey, and somebody has twisted the signpost. I am almost at my journeys end, but nearer maybe to my wits end. It seems to me that you can't ask a vet, a simple question these days. Unless......?
Vic, it may be time to find a good avian vet. It will cost a few pounds but save you a lot of groping in the dark. Send Dr. Gord an email. He is very helpful. I'll pm you his email address.
Thanks Larry, for your wholehearted advice, I will heed your suggestions, before mistreating. TO BE QUITE HONEST, I AM HALF WAY UP THE WALL AND THINKING OF CALLING IT A DAY. I AM NO NOVICE, AS YOU KNOW. BUT OUR MODERN VETS, THRIVE SOLELY ON HOUSEHOLD PETS. STOP!
Actually, current recommendation is for birds to be vaccinated for Paramyxo while still in the nest because of the pandemic nature of Circovirus. Vaccination in the nest is not recommended for Paratyphoid as the vaccine is not as benign. Manufacturers at times offer label advice (for that is what it is) to cover themselves legally -- not necessarily offering the best medical procedure in that label advice. Fact. Ask any practicing veterinarian. And, with respect, your observations about antibodies and subsequent challenge related to ST v. C misses the point. In the case of ST v. C it does not matter that antibodies are developed after exposure: what matters is that many of those same birds with those antibodies do indeed become carriers/hosts of the bacteria. Much like herpes virus in humans, it goes dormant at the cellular level only to surface again when the bird is stressed in some manner. They will not show overt signs of the disease, but they will shed the bacteria through feces and mucosal tissues infecting other birds, often resulting in septacemia in the younger pigeons and in a few older birds -- especially when Circovirus is also present, which these days must always be considered as part of the analysis. /quote]
The point I was making concerned vaccination where antibodies to the organism being vaccinated against were already present. I cited the warning given for PMV vaccine when PMV antibodies were already present, and the reason given for not doing it was that the vaccine may not take. I would think this knowledge would come from field trials of the vaccine.
I agree that vets currently recommend PMV vaccination be given as early as possible, (given circovirus and its destructive affect on the bursa of fabricius) but Colombovac and Nobilis are quite specific - not to birds younger that 3 weeks and 5 weeks respectively. I have been in previous email contact with Gordon Chalmers on PMV vaccination, and the Colombovac warning about maternal antibodies, especially since I vaccinate one month prior to pairing my pigeons up, and his guidance was that I follow the current recommendation, subject to the age limits for the vaccine being used. I have done this for 2 years now.
If that is the advice Gord gave you it is valuable information. He probably told you some avian vets here feel the risk associated with Circovirus outweights off-label practice, but on the pragmatic side Colombovac is not the primary supplier of PMV vaccine here. I am aware of one astute medical person who uses Colombovac who recommends in-nest injection at no later than three weeks old due to the problem of Circovirus and YBS. If this is an item of high concern for you could contact Colombovac and inquire if antibody rejection is absolute or merely potential during early vaccination. It is entirely possible they are not aware of the early link of Circovirus, the destruction of the Bursa and onset of PMV and you would be doing them a favor by inquiring.
About eight years ago I accepted five young pigeons from a fancier in another State for a local futurity race. The gentleman had a good reputation and the birds arrived looking quite healthy. I vaccinated for PMV and Salmonella and within a month young pigeons began dropping like flies, including all from that fancier. I took the birds to the university lab to be posted. Circovirus, PMV, Paratyphoid, Herpesvirus, etc. was the result. That fancier then confessed to me he had ongoing problems with Circovirus. Even though I vaccinated, the damage was done. If anyone has experienced this they will do whatever they can within good veterinary practice to avoid it. Word to the wise.
some great posts there larry we have already heard of circovirus in the one loft race where we had a massive flyaway then circo followed by paramaxyo leading to the culling of many birds and then the eventual cancelation of the race sure kaybee maybe could go into more detail
maybe this is a cause of the massive losses across the uk over the last few years??????????????? i also had a bird drop dead this year for no reason then another two i culled and one more i had a postmortem done on it i was told para was rife in scotland but i was lucky all they could find was a bad canker funny how nobody mentions when there birds are sick
youngbird sickness or circovirus two in the same or one weaker strain or totally different whats your opinion ?
Hi Bart. There is a growing consensus that Circovirus is the primary culprit behind YBS. Earlier it was assumed to be Adenovirus which opened the door to massive multiplication of Ecoli leading to vomiting, etc., etc. In some areas the testing for Circovirus now used is more sensitive and CV is now more readily discovered. The good news/bad news I read in a recent article indicates that while there is still nothing that can prevent CV, subsequent generations show antibodies to CV perhaps indicating the ability of a loft (assuming good immune systems) to have better resistance to the virus. So yes, I would suspect that in young bird racing this virus may be at least part of the problem for losses. And if the F1 old birds after the initial exposure are lost in large numbers, it could be a factor there as well. Of course, this is speculation on my part.
If that is the advice Gord gave you it is valuable information. He probably told you some avian vets here feel the risk associated with Circovirus outweights off-label practice, but on the pragmatic side Colombovac is not the primary supplier of PMV vaccine here. I am aware of one astute medical person who uses Colombovac who recommends in-nest injection at no later than three weeks old due to the problem of Circovirus and YBS. If this is an item of high concern for you could contact Colombovac and inquire if antibody rejection is absolute or merely potential during early vaccination. It is entirely possible they are not aware of the early link of Circovirus, the destruction of the Bursa and onset of PMV and you would be doing them a favor by inquiring.
About eight years ago I accepted five young pigeons from a fancier in another State for a local futurity race. The gentleman had a good reputation and the birds arrived looking quite healthy. I vaccinated for PMV and Salmonella and within a month young pigeons began dropping like flies, including all from that fancier. I took the birds to the university lab to be posted. Circovirus, PMV, Paratyphoid, Herpesvirus, etc. was the result. That fancier then confessed to me he had ongoing problems with Circovirus. Even though I vaccinated, the damage was done. If anyone has experienced this they will do whatever they can within good veterinary practice to avoid it. Word to the wise.
Judging by the number of research papers available on-line, using maternal antibodies as search keywords, the role maternal antibodies play in the suppression of vaccination in humans, animals and birds seems to be generally well known.
Going back to the original point: Maternal antibodies are not a special case - any antibodies present whether due to disease or previous vaccination - will nullify a later vaccine against the same organism. This is borne out at this link, which I find refreshingly easy to follow given that it is written in plain English:-
Judging by the number of research papers available on-line, using maternal antibodies as search keywords, the role maternal antibodies play in the suppression of vaccination in humans, animals and birds seems to be generally well known.
Going back to the original point: Maternal antibodies are not a special case - any antibodies present whether due to disease or previous vaccination - will nullify a later vaccine against the same organism. This is borne out at this link, which I find refreshingly easy to follow given that it is written in plain English:-
If antibodies were omnipotent, maternal or otherwise, then there would be no need to vaccinate humans, birds, or animals at all. But in fact, not all antibodies transfer, even when carried by the adult. And, given that some antibodies are temporary or non-efficient (note the annual need for vaccination for most issues in pigeons), wisdom would seem to call for vaccination -- at least if one desires to actually race their pigeons, exposing them to the primordial ooze of the racing pannier. Since the average fancier cannot currently measure antibodies of pigeons in the nest or in adult birds it would seem inadvisable to do otherwise. I.e., sometimes common sense must weigh in. Good discussion, but I think my last on this issue as we seem to be spinning in circles and my time is very limited.
Not sure whether any of you have read this article, http://www.ifpigeon.com/IF/articles/Streptococcus_bovis_infection.html it seems to be focussed on european studies and although possibly slightly dated does give a vets insight into the problems and what can and doesn't work as a cure. One theory that keeps cropping up is sanitation but as one or more posters here know if you get a stray coming in with your birds from a training run or even race that has the bug then you can be as sanitised as you like the bug just walked in through the front door.
My viewpoint is that it will eventually be controlled but never cured, but as with all types of bacterium it will mutate and we'll go back to stage one.
Not sure whether any of you have read this article, http://www.ifpigeon.com/IF/articles/Streptococcus_bovis_infection.html it seems to be focussed on european studies and although possibly slightly dated does give a vets insight into the problems and what can and doesn't work as a cure. One theory that keeps cropping up is sanitation but as one or more posters here know if you get a stray coming in with your birds from a training run or even race that has the bug then you can be as sanitised as you like the bug just walked in through the front door.
My viewpoint is that it will eventually be controlled but never cured, but as with all types of bacterium it will mutate and we'll go back to stage one.
Do you not run this risk using holding lofts, with the chance of cross infection either way, from loft to visitor, visitor to loft or even visitor to visitor
Vic, it may be time to find a good avian vet. It will cost a few pounds but save you a lot of groping in the dark. Send Dr. Gord an email. He is very helpful. I'll pm you his email address.
Thanks Larry, for your remarkable postings. I ejoyed your forthright comments when pipa first started a number of years back. I will be contacting Gord, as I know that he too, is the bees knees. I have already wasted enough money, with inadeqate vets around these quarters. So. Do or Die! I will be doing it your way. Good luck Always. Cheers, Vic.
Do you not run this risk using holding lofts, with the chance of cross infection either way, from loft to visitor, visitor to loft or even visitor to visitor
Yes, this is one of the risks, when talking about holding lofts with strays. Let's face it! Some of these birds will be walking bacteriological timebombs! As one loft racing, will prove to be another of all our yesterdays due to this creeping paratyhoid, that can hide within perfect looking pigeons. Think About it! Years ago, I remember sending for a really good multiple winner who had never been out at night time. But alas! like all gooduns, most meet their Waterloo! There was a scheme at the time run by the Racing Pigeon helping to get lost birds back from the continent. (continued) shortly, before iis erased.
Yes, this is one of the risks, when talking about holding lofts with strays. Let's face it! Some of these birds will be walking bacteriological timebombs! As one loft racing, will prove to be another of all our yesterdays due to this creeping paratyhoid, that can hide within perfect looking pigeons. Think About it! Years ago, I remember sending for a really good multiple winner who had never been out at night time. But alas! like all gooduns, most meet their Waterloo! There was a scheme at the time run by the Racing Pigeon helping to get lost birds back from the continent. (continued) shortly, before it's erased.
Sorry, I cannot type anywhere near as fast as I once did, Arthrits is moving into my digits. that served me so well in the past. Anyhow! etting back to the RP scheme They would hold lost pigeons in quarintine, until there was enough of them to make the scheme viable. for themselves and believe me it wasn't cheap regarding the money side as well. I WAS AT WORK AND THE BIRD WAS DROPPED OFF BY PROBABLY THE RAILWAY VANS IN THEM DAYS, AND PUT IN THE LOFT. On arriving home I examined the bird , only to find that it had a respirtory infection. Within 2 weeks my entire flock were infected, I will always remember going up to the loft one cold November morning to witness their breathing. Just like race horses n the winter after a race. Some had lost their sound completely. But in them days we had good vets, so I took a couple to Garston, and the vet prescribed xxxxxxxxxxxxx You tell me? And within the next few weeks won the biggest show in Livepool at the time (Roby FC) with the same pigeons that were blowing steam four weks previously. Vic.
i dont see the point of worrying, we all will get something one or the other,all we can do is be on guard for anything that comes in. one thing ive always stuck too...have the medication at home...dont let a few days waiting for it to arrive to treat ur birds. if uve got it there, then those few days will/could make a difference to clearing up anything u may have.
i dont see the point of worrying, we all will get something one or the other,all we can do is be on guard for anything that comes in. one thing ive always stuck too...have the medication at home...dont let a few days waiting for it to arrive to treat ur birds. if uve got it there, then those few days will/could make a difference to clearing up anything u may have.
I think some people like to worry to be honest strapper. Quite agree that a few of the more common treatments have a resonable shelf life and are worth keeping to hand, we have always done this and should a problem crop up, and from time to time it does, then it never becomes a real problem, just a niggle. One golden rule I have always stuck to is never let a stray enter the loft! If one needs to be caught then its in a wooden box isolated well away from our birds where it can be fed and watered as there is usually a reason they dont go home, they aint all thick.
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I believe you are spot-on in your thinking, because we already have a vaccination 'warning' that we should be reading every year that features roughly the same circumstances - Paramyxo vaccine and maternal antibodies - and Colombovac's instruction 
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