Pigeonbasics.com

Vic, the link to the subject is still on the main forum, and can be accessed from there. Nothing is lost, but it is now accessable from two areas of the overall forum. Actually, a better situation for those who are new.

Quoted from IB

As before, Larry, I find your views thought-provoking.

My understanding of gut microflora is that it is all about checks & balances between the different colonies. I understand that there are around 400 different strains each having around 1000 members present? Of these Lactobacteria form just part - what percentage I don't know, but I do know that not all bacteria produce Lactic Acid.

Agree that Lactic Acid has action on transit.  Biology at school taught that that was down to peristalsis - rythmic flexing of the gut pushing contents forward (and if you are really unlucky anti-peristalsis will bring it all back up) but Lactic Acid must act as a sort of catalyst, too much production as you say (from the Lactobacteria) will cause loose droppings - and too little will cause constipation, or perhaps those sticky droppings members have asked about elsewhere on the Site. So 'balance' must be right at all times.

But there must be trade-off, because Lactic Acid lowers gut pH which makes it a hostile environment for some of our birds' pathogens. And so to yoghurt which has both lactobacteria that turned the milk sour (turning it to yoghurt) and lactic acid, which is the sour taste. All bacteria need sugars - ooliwhatsits - the trick I'm told is to make 'the food source' available only to the normal gut microflora - there in numbers, and not the pathogens, preferably not there at all.

So going back to Vic's loose droppings. Could these be down to an imbalance in gut flora - too much lactobacteria, and not enough of the other types? Perhaps caused by PrimaLac which appears to be only Lactobacteria? And in my case too, by the yoghurt - which also appears to be only Lactobacteria - over too many days?

FlightPath claims it contains the full pigeon gut microflora, although it does not list them.

Hi IB,

PrimaLac has five live bacteria and all are avian specific. If you go to http://primalac.com the university trials and studies on the product should be listed. The poultry studies are most instructive. I have heard good things about FlightPath, but I really don't know anything about it. When I learned about PrimaLac from Dr. Gord I used it. Within two days my birds had droppings like little marbles. It employs an exclusionary method. Several layers of "good" bacteria line the intestines, etc. to form a "wall" of layers of microorganisms that make it difficult for salmonella and ecoli to reach the intestine walls. That is its value, as I understand it. In addition, it makes the lower GI tract acidic, which is also hostile to ecoli and salmonella. For what it is worth.

Quoted from Larry Lucas

At one teaspoon per gallon PrimaLac can be used daily, if desired. I use it daily during breeding season as young pigeons develop beautiful feather. I discovered this when reading a university study on the use of PrimaLac with Bob White Quail chicks. Another benefit is good bacteria are excreted into the loft in the droppings creating a hostile environment for Salmonella. Thanks to Dr. Gord Chalmers for this tip.

While yoghurt contains active bacteria that is helpful to the birds, the lactose can produce loose droppings. In addition, the sugars can be counterproductive if a problem with ecoli exists as these bacteria feed on the sugars.

since that someone knocked on my door,, prev post ,, in fact brought bad news of family illness , so just trying now to catch up on this thread ,,, first of all out of larries post ,, lactose [even allthough in yogurt ], will produce loose droppings  in fact its lactose that is given to humans to releive constipation , and as larry says " the sugars in yogurt can be counterproductive [i would go as far as saying ,,,would be ] if a problem with e coli exists , as these bacterias feed of the sugars"  e,coli, possibly could be secondry infection to many illnesses in pigeons , where immune system is lowered,  and this in itself causes severe problems ,
as far as the post on vets ,, rubbish in my opinion,, like all "jobs" some are good at their jobs ,, some are not ,, some in it for the money, some not ,, a good avian vet,, like a good doctor  , cares deeply and thoughtfully .
will catch up more with this thread as its very interesting indeed ,, maybe just a point for vic,,this thread will be far better on this topical posting,, as on the main board it would dissapear , very quickly with the amount of post being posted on the main board , so maybe better on "sticky" as its there for keeps ,,,as paratyphoid seems to be here for keeps  

Quoted from jimmy white

first of all out of larries post ,, lactose [even allthough in yogurt ], will produce loose droppings  in fact its lactose that is given to humans to releive constipation , and as larry says " the sugars in yogurt can be counterproductive [i would go as far as saying ,,,would be ] if a problem with e coli exists , as these bacterias feed of the sugars"  e,coli, possibly could be secondry infection to many illnesses in pigeons , where immune system is lowered,  and this in itself causes severe problems  

Lactose is the milk sugar, the one which pigeons don't have the necessary enzyme to digest.

My understanding of yoghurt is that it is a direct product of lactobacteria action on lactose which is converted to lactic acid.

Acid being acid, this production from the conversion of lactose lowers the pH of milk (7) down yoghurt's (4/5). So in addition to the sugar food source being used up by lactobacteria, they have also created a hostile acidic environment in which e-coli and its kin bacteria, salmonella, cannot survive.

My understanding of this is : 'double jeopardy' or 'belt & braces' - even if manufacturers add sugar to natural live yoghurt (which from the label sugar content they do)  the acid environment still means that e coli, salmonella and other pathogens cannot survive to make use of those sugars.

I wonder too if those added sugars are actually added to prolong the life of the product on the shelf; there will be lactobacteria die-off in the container, but as refrigeration only slows rather than halts bacteria proliferation perhaps lactobacteria utilise these sugars to multiply in the container 'while it's still on the shelf'.

Yoghurt is therefore a milk product of benefit to pigeons.

IB, I think it is true that only partial conversion occurs in the production of yoghurt from milk. Homemade yoghurt has more of the beneficial bacteria, but for reasons of taste and palatability commercially produced products have far less helpful bacteria and far more sugars and lactose.

For our purposes a product that is avian based is probably far more effective. I know by experience that PrimaLac is.

To everybody that has followed this debate, especially Larry and IB, who lose guys like myself, on their sheer technical vocabulary ability. I do applaud them both,  for making it, perhaps, one of the most interesting threads for quite a while.  I also thank Jimmy White for his input , based  no doubt, through his vast experience on winning, (and losing) in this beautiful game of ours. May I repeat that this is a KILLER for pigeons, unless it is checked, and possibly the end of the already waning pigeon scene. I'll be back later.      

would i be right in saying the product for humans [easily purchased from chemists] called LACTULOSE  which is the treatment for constipation   is   is a product derived from LACTOSE ??

IB, to add a thought: if fanciers cannot afford something like PrimaLac, yoghurt is certainly better than nothing and unless the birds have high levels of ecoli it will certainly benefit them. But because of the lactose, too much too often could produce loose droppings.

Jimmy, that would be a safe assumption.

in many years of keeping and breeding pigeons , i have noted that  a lot of the  lofts that have suffered  from paratyphoid , in the past ,,,,have been using floor dressing or lime ,, can this be dis-advantages,, in the worry of contracting this dreaded desease ??  or am i just being over critical,, but noted some time ago , a very top flier loosing most of his  birds [ well over 100 ] to this desease ,used this lime floor dressing ,, but have noted more since then,  using this dressing, have cotracted the same ,,, can this be a factor by any chance?

Quoted from jimmy white

would i be right in saying the product for humans [easily purchased from chemists] called LACTULOSE  which is the treatment for constipation   is   is a product derived from LACTOSE ??

You are taking me a bit beyond the boundaries of what I know, Jimmy.   It's to do with Chemistry, and you are the acknowledged Professor there.  

Web says you are quite correct, Lactulose is derived from Lactose, and the chemical process produces a change in the sugar.

Lactose consists of two simple sugars Fructose and Galactose. All foodstuffs have to be reduced to its simplest state before the body can absorb it.

Appears Lactulose is these simple sugars but rather than being digested, because they have been chemically altered they remain in the gut and draw water from the body into the gut  which loosens up the stiff stuff and gets things on the move again.    

Mentioned previously animals require an enzyme to digest Lactose. The enzyme is Lactase which also splits Lactose into its simplest form, Fructose and Galactose. These simple sugars are chemically unaltered, and both are absorbed by the body.

As I said before, pigeons don't have Lactase therefore they cannot split lactose into the two simple sugars. That is the techy explanation why the milk sugar cannot be of any use to the pigeon.

With regards to Jimmys views floor dresings of any kind will not eradicate the problem.With over 4878 views we have a serious problem and i would refer you back to my previous post 84.I brought up the issue last year at a function and they thought i was daft.This year i tryed to educate but to no avail same guys who know everthing but common sense prevailed.

Quoted from jimmy white

in many years of keeping and breeding pigeons , i have noted that  a lot of the  lofts that have suffered  from paratyphoid , in the past ,,,,have been using floor dressing or lime ,, can this be dis-advantages,, in the worry of contracting this dreaded desease ??  or am i just being over critical,, but noted some time ago , a very top flier loosing most of his  birds [ well over 100 ] to this desease ,used this lime floor dressing ,, but have noted more since then,  using this dressing, have cotracted the same ,,, can this be a factor by any chance?

I think it is one of trade-off Jimmy.   This thread has mentioned that pathogenic bacteria flourish in alkaline conditions, and die in acidic conditions. Lime (calcium carbonate) is an alkiline.

But as usual, might not be that simple. This and other threads mention dry conditions kills most pathogens, wet patches and they flourish.

I have used lime in the past as part of deep litter system to dry-out the droppings. As soon as the moisture is gone, the organism is gone too. Doesn't matter what it is, everything needs water to live.

Think Roland and others have also advocated putting lime in drinking water?

I would concur with Jimmy. Those I know who have used lime regularly had more problems with Paratyphoid. Coincidence? Possibly, but an acidic environment is always to be preferred, in my opinion.

What about using a blow torch on the floor say once a week would that keep it at bay?

Quoted from ALF

What about using a blow torch on the floor say once a week would that keep it at bay?

It would help -- unless you burn down your loft!

Quoted from Larry Lucas

It would help -- unless you burn down your loft!

I've been using the burner for a few years now Larry and it's a great help during the damp winter days

this has been put on before:
Laundry bleach is commonly diluted about 10 to 25-fold with tap water to about 2000 to 5000 parts per million of free available chlorine for use as an environmental surface disinfectant, without regard to the pH value of the diluted bleach. However, the pH value is very important for the antimicrobial effectiveness of bleach," says Norman Miner, a researcher on the study.

At alkaline pH values of about 8.5 or higher, more than 90 percent of the bleach is in the form of the chlorite ion (OCl-), which is relatively ineffective antimicrobially. At acidic pH values of about 6.8 or lower, more than 80 percent of the bleach is in the form of hypochlorite (HOCl). HOCl is about 80 to 200 times more antimicrobial than OCl-.

"Bleach is a much more effective antimicrobial chemical at an acidic pH value than at the alkaline Ph value at which bleach is manufactured and stored. A small amount of household vinegar is sufficient to lower the pH of bleach to an acidic range," says Miner.

Miner and his colleagues compared the ability of alkaline (pH 11) and acidified (pH 6) bleach dilutions to disinfect surfaces contaminated with dried bacterial spores, considered the most resistant to disinfectants of all microbes. The alkaline dilution was practically ineffective, killing all of the spores on only 2.5 percent of the surfaces after 20 minutes. During the same time period the acidified solution killed all of the spores on all of the surfaces.

"Diluted bleach at an alkaline pH is a relatively poor disinfectant, but acidified diluted bleach will virtually kill anything in 10 to 20 minutes," says Miner. "In the event of an emergency involving Bacillus anthracis spores contaminating such environmental surfaces as counter tops, desk and table tops, and floors, for example, virtually every household has a sporicidal sterilant available in the form of diluted, acidified bleach."

Miner recommends first diluting one cup of household bleach in one gallon of water and then adding one cup of white vinegar.

You need to wear a mask and keep loft well ventilated - as the fumes are awful !!

vic,a large percentage of liverpool lofts have been vacinating against paratyphoid for a number of years now,those that have not seen its full affect on the birds probly think a bit of scaremongering goes on i think .
its not a nice thing to see.
hope your birds get back to full health soon mate.
jimmy

I found Redcheqhen's post on bleach interesting though puzzling as mixing chemicals isn't normally recommended.

Back in my Railway days, our Scientist actually tested cleaning agents used inside and outside trains - the solutions were given numbers rather than names - and labels of those accepted as safe for use by railway carraige cleaners would instruct 'not to be used with any other agent'.

However the post prompted me to check out the bleach I've been using outside the loft, 'Domestos' - the one that claims it kills all known germs - big big surprise, found its Sodium Hypochlorite (of Milton fame) 5% solution which makes it ph11 (alkaline).

Label also warns that it too is not to be mixed with any other substances as it will (could?) give off dangerous fumes - chlorine gas.

As a teenager I used to scrub the loft wooden floor with Domestos: sure does give off fumes on its own.