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I am now concerned that most of our losses these days are down to sickness, wthin a large percentage of pigeons.  Somebody correct me if I am wrong.  Take paratyphoid for instance, I have been led to believe, that many pigeons can carry it, without showing any symptoms whatsoever. And seeing that it's a very hard sickness to treat, How the hell can we stop it worsening?    

don't know about this. surely if your birds are healthy when basketed and they are mixed on the lorry with sick ones they surely they wouldn't go down overnight but instead most would get home and then develop the disease. the losses then would be more severe because they had just had the stress of racing but they'd die in the loft. the paratyphoid would be a problem as the birds would have it but until tested show no ill effects...the racing 'challenge' to the immune system may in that case prove to great. not alot you can apart from blood test/screening perhaps but the cost would mean few fanciers would agree

paratyphoid can be vaccinated against.
But when a bird is stressed it is prone to a lowered imune system!

Phil

paratyphoid is very much in the picture at the moment, with some fanciers ignoring it and sending birds that look ok,whilst leaving the sick looking ones at home...this is how it spreads.
then fanciers are left wondering how they have it in their lofts.
ive heard of reports of fanciers having sickness in their birds and having trouble curing them in the usual time, but dont realise it maybe paratyphoid.

Quoted from Vic

I am now concerned that most of our losses these days are down to sickness, wthin a large percentage of pigeons.  Somebody correct me if I am wrong.  Take paratyphoid for instance, I have been led to believe, that many pigeons can carry it, without showing any symptoms whatsoever. And seeing that it's a very hard sickness to treat, How the hell can we stop it worsening?    

In a word "Baytril" then vaccinate if you want belt and braces!

stop killing ur birds stpo the drugs and let them get an amunesystume the trend is start them on drugs when weaned   stand back and take a look

Quoted from weecunny

stop killing ur birds stpo the drugs and let them get an amunesystume the trend is start them on drugs when weaned   stand back and take a look

no offence but this is meaningless twaddle!

[quote=590]stop killing ur birds stpo the drugs and let them get an amunesystume the trend is start them on drugs when weaned   stand back and take a look
Makes perfect sence to me. And yes I would be offended.

Quoted from Vic

I am now concerned that most of our losses these days are down to sickness, wthin a large percentage of pigeons.  Somebody correct me if I am wrong.  Take paratyphoid for instance, I have been led to believe, that many pigeons can carry it, without showing any symptoms whatsoever. And seeing that it's a very hard sickness to treat, How the hell can we stop it worsening?    

what beats me,, we never had this years ago [in fact yb sickness is not a recognised desease] its just what we call this ailment of many , it could be circovirus followed on with secondry infections,, the thing is its so common to most lofts now, worsened especialy in the last few years ,,,,we often hear that find the cause is better than the cure,,,yet we still cant definitely find the cause ,, when this" sickness"first reared its ugly head , i remember lofts in cornwall having this prob , same time as lofts in edinburgh, yet they say its airborne, it makes you wonder whats so different now than of years back ,,are we using too much antibiotics ,,not every one does, are we treating too much , not every one does ,,, stress definately in my book makes this worse , but we had stress years ago too,, is it the constitution of the birds that are bred nowadays?? who knows,, ive often wondered that one thing  most lofts have in common is the feeding and where it is grown and more importantly , how its grown ,,,grain is sometimes harvested twice a year now,  giving out bigger yields in each crop , doesnt seem natural somehow, looking at the wheat [for instance ] years ago it had long stems and small sheaves, now it has short stems and bigger sheaves ,, it seems its all forced, somehow,  to make more cash ? grain mostly comes from the same countries and the only thing we all have in common , is we feed them with this same grain , so it makes you wonder at times [just food for thought ,,if you pardon the pun] that , could this be a cause of this" sickness "  just a thought,,,,,,were using antibiotics to cure this , are we now too dependent on this ?  producing birds with a lesser immune system , who knows ,,but one thing is for sure is , its hitting more and more each year  

Quoted from peterpau

[quote=590]stop killing ur birds stpo the drugs and let them get an amunesystume the trend is start them on drugs when weaned   stand back and take a look
Makes perfect sence to me. And yes I would be offended.

Read the post If you don't treat birds with para you are killing them!! anyone who would allow their birds to die from an illness that is treatable should be banned from keeping pigeons. Indeed the latest animal welfare act makes it an offence not to seek professional help for animals in your care which are ill and guess what you could be banned for life from keeping animals if found guilty. Welcome to the 21st century

Surely some of you guys have missed the gist of the original posting, I honestly believe that paratyphoid is more prevalent than ever. Maybe the ones, that are using the wide spect. drugs,  are one step ahead for a short while. How do we stop paratyphoid, circovirus etc etc etc before it runs havoc everywhere?

Quoted from Vic

Surely some of you guys have missed the gist of the original posting, I honestly believe that paratyphoid is more prevalent than ever. Maybe the ones, that are using the wide spect. drugs,  are one step ahead for a short while. How do we stop paratyphoid, circovirus etc etc etc before it runs havoc everywhere?

They already are, you are too late,  protect your birds or watch them die!

i remember colin surties warning me about it 6/7 years ago and my ans. was we dont have that prob in scotland well we did and your right vic they are streets ahead and if you dont try and keep up you will be left far behind i wish it wa as simple as letting them build amunity but i think its past that now if you want to compete think again

Quoted from Vic

Surely some of you guys have missed the gist of the original posting, I honestly believe that paratyphoid is more prevalent than ever. Maybe the ones, that are using the wide spect. drugs,  are one step ahead for a short while. How do we stop paratyphoid, circovirus etc etc etc before it runs havoc everywhere?

Think you said it Vic one step ahead for a short while

Quoted from Vic

Surely some of you guys have missed the gist of the original posting, I honestly believe that paratyphoid is more prevalent than ever. Maybe the ones, that are using the wide spect. drugs,  are one step ahead for a short while. How do we stop paratyphoid, circovirus etc etc etc before it runs havoc everywhere?

yes vic, they are allready running havoc , but  does the , so called cure i,e injection, andbroad spectrum  antibiotic ,, really mean cure ? in the long run ? or , in the long run , are we in fact making it worse ??  i honestly dont know ,, but cannot help wondering why this is so bad now, when it wasnt years ago,,

Reduce cross-country breeding?

I HAVE TO SAY I JAGGED FOR PARATYPHOID LAST YEAR AND HAD MY BEST Y/B SEASON YET BUT THIS YEAR I DECIDED I WANTED TO TRY SOMETHING DIFFERENT AND WENT BACK TO BASICS WITH THEM NO DARK NO TREATMENTS APART  FROM THE PARAMYXO JAG AND THATS BEEN ABOUT IT AND BY THE WAY I WON THE RACE LAST WEEK ASWELL WITH 480 BIRDS AWAY SO THEY CANNAE BE THAT BAD

ive never jagged for it alf its the immune system we have too build up not jag for it protect against it dont try and cure it after it hits you its too late then

Quoted from FrankDooman

ive never jagged for it alf its the immune system we have too build up not jag for it protect against it dont try and cure it after it hits you its too late then

MY DOOS NEVER HAD IT FRANK BUT I WAS ADVISED TO JAG FOR IT SO THOUGHT I WOULD TRY IT AND THE Y/B'S FLEW GREAT AFTER I DID IT

So! Is it a hush, hush game that we are in? Antibiotics? Never, never, they preach! Yet according to some, it's ok to use the wide spects, when it suits  them. As I said previously, for how long?

I would like to see the evidence that paratyphoid is common, or on the increase, and that illness is responsible for losses.

While the 'carrier' state of any disease is well known, it cannot exist in isolation. The parent may be a carrier, but in the hen at least, the live version of the infection must be transmitted to the unborn youngster via the egg, with probable death(s) occurring in the nest. So where you have a carrier, you have infected and sick birds too. So it is fairly obvious where the likely source is.

The manufacturers of Baytril are also quite clear on the use of their product in treating Salmonella - don't, cull the birds out. And the reason for that is known bacterial resistance to the drug, and to prevent further strains developing resistance. Culling out disease is also Law in this country, and its practice is very evident whenever there is any serious disease outbreak, Foot & Mouth, Blue toungue, Newcastle Disease,  Avian Flu etc etc.

dont use them either vic

Quoted from Vic

So! Is it a hush, hush game that we are in? Antibiotics? Never, never, they preach! Yet according to some, it's ok to use the wide spects, when it suits  them. As I said previously, for how long?

I THINK IT IS A BIT HUSH HUSH VIC AS I DEFO SEEN A BIG IMPROVEMENT AFTER I DONE THEM FOR TYPHOID LAST YEAR   BUT THEN AGAIN I SUPPOSE IT IS WHAT YOU DO AFTER THAT THAT COUNTS re..TRAINING FEEDING ETC

jimmy white is right treating with jags etc might cure it that year but will it cum with vengance next year iam not willing to chance that i think there is somthing in between treating and letting them build up there own ammunity

Still believe that if its something the birds can get over and build there own immunity up against you should let them and not keep treating them its seems once you start treating its something that you cant stop doing Ive had birds bred for me by those who believed in treating and there was always something wrong with them and all my other birds were fine

Quoted from Rose

Still believe that if its something the birds can get over and build there own immunity up against you should let them and not keep treating them its seems once you start treating its something that you cant stop doing Ive had birds bred for me by those who believed in treating and there was always something wrong with them and all my other birds were fine

It's the same reason why doctors won't prescribe antibiotics at the drop of a hat - like they used to.  And the same reason I have to suffer with tonsilitis for three weeks

Quoted from Rose

Still believe that if its something the birds can get over and build there own immunity up against you should let them and not keep treating them its seems once you start treating its something that you cant stop doing Ive had birds bred for me by those who believed in treating and there was always something wrong with them and all my other birds were fine

Rose, I have heard some instances where the birds are/or look like/ they are in perfect condition during the autumn months before pairing. yet when the breeding commences, the immunity goes through the back door, with the same ugly killing machine coming into operation again.

Dont know what the answer is to it Vic think the harm has been done with the way a lot have thought that antibiotics was the quick answer to anything that goes wrong just hope that the companies can keep up with producing antibiotics because what you get now seems to very quickly build up a resistance to them  Think at least the doctors realise that but then they arent making a lot of money selling them to you

Quoted from invalidusername

It's the same reason why doctors won't prescribe antibiotics at the drop of a hat - like they used to.  And the same reason I have to suffer with tonsilitis for three weeks

Who needs jaws, with paws like yours?

Jabbing up against  paratyphoid guarantees you next to nothing. The vaccine only immunises against a very small percentage of the 2000+ different avian strains. By all means get them tested for it if you feel your pigeons are under performing but don’t think for one minute that because you have jabbed you can then discount this disease for losses or poor performances.

It doesn’t answer your question Vic but it shows what were fighting against.

Quoted from Tony C

Jabbing up against  paratyphoid guarantees you next to nothing. The vaccine only immunises against a very small percentage of the 2000+ different avian strains. By all means get them tested for it if you feel your pigeons are under performing but don’t think for one minute that because you have jabbed you can then discount this disease for losses or poor performances.

It doesn’t answer your question Vic but it shows what were fighting against.

AREN'T WE ALL! lol.

With about only 10% replies, on something that is crucial in pigeon racing today. I have came to one conclusion, It will be too late, when the wise men, have gone.

I wouldn't dream of using Baytril and vaccinating. We use too much gear propping them up, keep too many stock pigeons, and don't push 'em far eneough.
I use cider vinegar and honey, natural yoghurt, and milton. I do treat for kanker and use Ivermectin for worms, but this is only occasional. When young, the birds need to establish their own immunity first, before treating with all and sundry. The overuse of drugs, in the livestock industry, has caused tremendous problems, and it's not a road I wish to go down.

Quoted from Vic

So! Is it a hush, hush game that we are in? Antibiotics? Never, never, they preach! Yet according to some, it's ok to use the wide spects, when it suits  them. As I said previously, for how long?

A GOOD AVIAN VETENARY DOCTOR , NEAR ME, COMMENTED , THAT PIGEON FANCIERS ARE THEIR OWN WORST ENEMY , IN USING ANTIBIOTICS WILLY NILLY, AND OTHER UN-NEEDFULL MEDICATION,,,,[SORRY VIC   DIDNT MEAN TO SHOUT   ]

Quoted from jimmy white

A GOOD AVIAN VETENARY DOCTOR , NEAR ME, COMMENTED , THAT PIGEON FANCIERS ARE THEIR OWN WORST ENEMY , IN USING ANTIBIOTICS WILLY NILLY, AND OTHER UN-NEEDFULL MEDICATION,,,,[SORRY VIC   DIDNT MEAN TO SHOUT   ]

And they will carry on doing that all the time it is being supplied freely to them I wonder how many look at the long term effects on what it is doing though or doesnt that matter as long as you have a cure to get your birds in the basket for this seasons racing

Well then I am another Luddite,thankfully,with two lofts of free range healthy racing birds,also a kit of rollers thanks to no doubt mostly old fashioned common sense stockmanship, I would I am sure use an anti-biotic if and when needed,it hasnt been for many years,nil,only the regular P.M.V. vaccination,and this beacuse its compulsory,would urge any fancier,to get back to basics,especially newbies to begin this way,even Medical Science is  finding using anti-biotics willy nilly are causing more problems than they solve,you can find as much benifit for our birds on supermarket shelves,for a fraction of what similar costs elsewhere,as for results when racing,as good if not better than many of those who appear to have a degree from Vetrinary College, putting this gunk into birds on a regular basis, has payback time eventuallyt.  

One thing i havn't seen pointed out and probably the reason for not many replies Vic is that there isn't a legal Vacine for Paratyphoid in this country is there?
Anybody vaccinating is obtaining it illegaly and by putting on here that they are jabbing are telling the world they are breaking the law!

Phil

Quoted from Merlin

Well then I am another Luddite,thankfully,with two lofts of free range healthy racing birds,also a kit of rollers thanks to no doubt mostly old fashioned common sense stockmanship, I would I am sure use an anti-biotic if and when needed,it hasnt been for many years,nil,only the regular P.M.V. vaccination,and this beacuse its compulsory,would urge any fancier,to get back to basics,especially newbies to begin this way,even Medical Science is  finding using anti-biotics willy nilly are causing more problems than they solve,you can find as much benifit for our birds on supermarket shelves,for a fraction of what similar costs elsewhere,as for results when racing,as good if not better than many of those who appear to have a degree from Vetrinary College, putting this gunk into birds on a regular basis, has payback time eventuallyt.  

you are priviliged never to have any sick birds. No one is suggesting you should use antibiotics without reason but to refuse to use any treatment on birds and just let them die is a bit perverted.

Doomen should hope they don't change the law and MAFF don't bring in compulsary testing and eradication of affected flocks because that will be doo racing finished once and for all, trust "me" a large percentage of lofts have this in them and it breaks out from time to time not alwas identified as para but definite causes illness in our birds.

And for the last time using antibiotics does not harm any animals imnune system why can't some of you "experts" get that through your heads.