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if you look at your birds flying and you notice one or two birds loose formation regularly with that i mean tum ell with one wing not as young birds do its like a wing beat lapse they are carriers also if you can get your stock out you will see the same thing stock prisoners tell there own story young die in the nest at an early age and one or both parents have not got a lot of concentration when sitting on young at night and usually flatten the squab
Yes, it was a case of 'fresh air in the neck' as Cowan & Parson's so succinctly put it. The good Dr Parson's also agreed with Cowan that there should be more use of that philosophy today. The good company wot makes Baytril also agree with it: for paratyphoid, they are quite blunt about it, 'don't give them Baytril, cull them'; and they also say its definitely not to be used as a preventative.
The first Dr I remember from that time was Dr Leon Whitney. Reading his book 'Keep yours pigeons flying' again last winter, I came across the bit on Canker, and the article on the experiments and the discovery of different strains, some more lethal than others? The deadly Barns Jones Strain? Written in 1950, it shows far more was known about natural immunisation against Canker and Cocci, and the immune system, than is known today ... although to be fair, Parsons and Gordon Chalmers promote 'background levels' and Gordon Chalmers has incorporated those early experiments in his reference works for the Fancy..
I actually discussed pigeon problems with Leon and he advised "me" to remember that "malucidin" (spelling") was a great way of sterilising the blood and helps attacks from cocci and e-coli got a few letters from him I will try and find them! The important thing to remember is we should all be trying to keep "our birds healthy"
Are you sure Rose? Most of the top English fanciers(AND SCOTTISH) in the old days bought their best stock from Europe!
Maybe comparing Apples & Pears here. In 'the old days' , up until 1960's, fanciers here and on mainland Europe didn't medicate. The period Cowan was talking about was mid-70's onwards.
no you cant,,,,,this is possibly the worst blight of pigeons , the unseen carrier,, thats why its very important when starting up , to get your birds from a long line of healthy birds , from a fancier who has won for many years [you dont win with ailing birds] a fancier whos management is spot on and whose pigeons have a high constitution and a high immune system ,,,,,hard to get that nowadays
And a fancier that doesnt have a cupboard that looks like a storeroom for boots the chemist
just a quick question bit off the point i know but would the birds of years ago have a hope of keeping into the birds of today i dont think so even if the methods of today was used on them
Approx four years ago,I was informed in the greates confidence,this Para innoculation with the course of Baytril previous ,was needed,most fanciers birds were suffering from it,with the fanciers unaware of it,and when cleared,birds race out of their skin,and so it became the latest hush hush secret,with only the Chemists the real winner.Funny enough the confidant who used it then,doesnt now.
I actually discussed pigeon problems with Leon and he advised "me" to remember that "malucidin" (spelling") was a great way of sterilising the blood and helps attacks from cocci and e-coli got a few letters from him I will try and find them! The important thing to remember is we should all be trying to keep "our birds healthy"
Yes, the danger is in picking thro then & now. Saw the same thing in recent reading of his book, it became a banned substance, it causes abortion in various animals.
If I remember correctly, he said that it isn't Cocci that kills, its the bacteria that it allows into the bloodstream thro the damaged gut wall that causes blood poisoning, it is this bacterial infection which kills, and he successfully treated that bacterial infection using this drug, then new.
Just a reminder again that this is a role 'good' bacteria play, they don't allow pathogenic bacteria near the gut wall both by sheer numbers (competitive exclusion) and by producing 'natural' toxins which kill them, or inhibit their growth. Use antibiotics, and you remove this part of the immune system. And they have a riole to play in digestion too. Waste of time feeding the birds anything if they are absent.
just a quick question bit off the point i know but would the birds of years ago have a hope of keeping into the birds of today i dont think so even if the methods of today was used on them
do you mean" keeping up with the birds of today" if so i would say velocities have never really changed dramaticly, through the years , but if the races were very hard ,,,,the returns were far better
You have just described "me" Rose I am not frightened of antibees and I know when to administer them commonsense I would say!
Its those who dont know when to adminster that worrys me or perhaps more importantly what they have actually got and what they should be adminstering How many have treated for what they think they have got and it hasnt worked
Yes, the danger is in picking thro then & now. Saw the same thing in recent reading of his book, it became a banned substance, it causes abortion in various animals.
If I remember correctly, he said that it isn't Cocci that kills, its the bacteria that it allows into the bloodstream thro the damaged gut wall that causes blood poisoning, it is this bacterial infection which kills, and he successfully treated that bacterial infection using this drug, then new.
Just a reminder again that this is a role 'good' bacteria play, they don't allow pathogenic bacteria near the gut wall both by sheer numbers (competitive exclusion) and by producing 'natural' toxins which kill them, or inhibit their growth. Use antibiotics, and you remove this part of the immune system. And they have a riole to play in digestion too. Waste of time feeding the birds anything if they are absent.
Furr goodness sake Ian will you listen? I know what I am talking about! Once the "Bad Bacteria" leave the gut the good bacteria in the gut do nothing helpful as in they are still in the gut!! Simple Eh? Is your birds immnune system killing all local diseases probaly not! Do they sometimes need a helping hand well Leon said they did!
M e I have raced North from Thurso,to France in the South,its no big deal,if you have got the birds,and naturally like most fanciers I tend to think quite a lot of my birds,and its for this reason I will not put Antbios into them,unless they need it,which thankfully they havent for a good number of years now,and any one who does it "blindly" is basically responsible for the new illnesses yet to come.
Well oddly enough now Me,I was giving it some thought as to what Bigda posted,being open minded etc,and quite a lot can be learned from just watching the wing action of our doos,something to ponder on.
M e I have raced North from Thurso,to France in the South,its no big deal,if you have got the birds,and naturally like most fanciers I tend to think quite a lot of my birds,and its for this reason I will not put Antbios into them,unless they need it,which thankfully they havent for a good number of years now,and any one who does it "blindly" is basically responsible for the new illnesses yet to come.
I am sure you have but you are still wasting "MONEY" bottom line is I am a relatively smart Bagstart and you are not that bright really. Only kidding!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i JUST LIKE PIGEONS
Furr goodness sake Ian will you listen? I know what I am talking about! Once the "Bad Bacteria" leave the gut the good bacteria in the gut do nothing helpful as in they are still in the gut!! Simple Eh? Is your birds immnune system killing all local diseases probaly not! Do they sometimes need a helping hand well Leon said they did!
All the best to LEONS memory he loved the doos!
Think we both may have a problem in the listening thing.
After an antibiotic course, every bacterial community left in the gut - good and bad bacteria - are at a much reduced level. It is now the most dangerous time for the bird, because (1) any bad bacteria left are immune to the drug just administered, and (2) in the absence of normal levels of good bacteria, may start to proliferate, invade the gut wall and cause new, more dangerous infection becuase the bugs have acquired resistance to the whole class of drug just used. The bird is already in a weakened state, its already failed to fight off a previous 'weaker' infection, and will probably succumb. Thats why a probiotic is given, to restore the 'good' to high levels.
The modern way of fighting infection is to stop it before it starts - through high levels of hygiene and looking after the pigeons so that they are able to look after themselves.
If my birds were not killing all local diseases, they would be ill. They aren't so something must be keeping diseases at bay, and that 'something' certainly isn't medication.
And yes, will (and have) treat for infection. At the beginning of this year a pooled loft droppings test revealed worms for the first time ('some hairworm about'). I treated for that (harka-verm). In the light of that finding, and that there was recorded resistance to active ingredient (Levamisole) looked for herbal womers which I now give weekly as a tea, and I also upped my hygiene.
No offense taken Me,your possibily a good guy,but again I have an open mind on that. Good Night I have unpollouted youngsters to train early in the morning.
i think if birds have had paratypoid [salmonella] their left with some form of disability , be it a drooping wing , a twisted neck, etc etc [or in fact got it ] same as the yb,s,,,, old birds that carry this usualy have" dead in the shell" a formed y,b, in the egg, but dead b4 hatching , this disease can be very varied allmost looking like paramyxo [loss of balance ,twisted head etc] but whatever we say about it ,,it still is one of the worst and hardest to get rid of disease in pigeons
After an antibiotic course, every bacterial community left in the gut - good and bad bacteria - are at a much reduced level. It is now the most dangerous time for the bird, because (1) any bad bacteria left are immune to the drug just administered, and (2) in the absence of normal levels of good bacteria, may start to proliferate, invade the gut wall and cause new, more dangerous infection becuase the bugs have acquired resistance to the whole class of drug just used. The bird is already in a weakened state, its already failed to fight off a previous 'weaker' infection, and will probably succumb. Thats why a probiotic is given, to restore the 'good' to high levels.
Something i bought up earlier you treat and cure but the birds immune system through the treatment is at a much reduced level so you really need to look at how long it is before the bird will build up its immune system and be safe to put in with other birds otherwise they are going to be very susceptible to picking up anything going especially if you start racing them again
After an antibiotic course, every bacterial community left in the gut - good and bad bacteria - are at a much reduced level. It is now the most dangerous time for the bird, because (1) any bad bacteria left are immune to the drug just administered, and (2) in the absence of normal levels of good bacteria, may start to proliferate, invade the gut wall and cause new, more dangerous infection becuase the bugs have acquired resistance to the whole class of drug just used. The bird is already in a weakened state, its already failed to fight off a previous 'weaker' infection, and will probably succumb. Thats why a probiotic is given, to restore the 'good' to high levels.
Something i bought up earlier you treat and cure but the birds immune system through the treatment is at a much reduced level so you really need to look at how long it is before the bird will build up its immune system and be safe to put in with other birds otherwise they are going to be very susceptible to picking up anything going especially if you start racing them again
the best post on the subject by a country mile read and learn folks
to learn from your mistakes is easy to learn from someone else' is harder.[bismarck]
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