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I would like to see the evidence that paratyphoid is common, or on the increase, and that illness is responsible for losses.

While the 'carrier' state of any disease is well known, it cannot exist in isolation. The parent may be a carrier, but in the hen at least, the live version of the infection must be transmitted to the unborn youngster via the egg, with probable death(s) occurring in the nest. So where you have a carrier, you have infected and sick birds too. So it is fairly obvious where the likely source is.

The manufacturers of Baytril are also quite clear on the use of their product in treating Salmonella - don't, cull the birds out. And the reason for that is known bacterial resistance to the drug, and to prevent further strains developing resistance. Culling out disease is also Law in this country, and its practice is very evident whenever there is any serious disease outbreak, Foot & Mouth, Blue toungue, Newcastle Disease,  Avian Flu etc etc.

dont use them either vic

Quoted from Vic

So! Is it a hush, hush game that we are in? Antibiotics? Never, never, they preach! Yet according to some, it's ok to use the wide spects, when it suits  them. As I said previously, for how long?

I THINK IT IS A BIT HUSH HUSH VIC AS I DEFO SEEN A BIG IMPROVEMENT AFTER I DONE THEM FOR TYPHOID LAST YEAR   BUT THEN AGAIN I SUPPOSE IT IS WHAT YOU DO AFTER THAT THAT COUNTS re..TRAINING FEEDING ETC

jimmy white is right treating with jags etc might cure it that year but will it cum with vengance next year iam not willing to chance that i think there is somthing in between treating and letting them build up there own ammunity

Still believe that if its something the birds can get over and build there own immunity up against you should let them and not keep treating them its seems once you start treating its something that you cant stop doing Ive had birds bred for me by those who believed in treating and there was always something wrong with them and all my other birds were fine

Quoted from Rose

Still believe that if its something the birds can get over and build there own immunity up against you should let them and not keep treating them its seems once you start treating its something that you cant stop doing Ive had birds bred for me by those who believed in treating and there was always something wrong with them and all my other birds were fine

It's the same reason why doctors won't prescribe antibiotics at the drop of a hat - like they used to.  And the same reason I have to suffer with tonsilitis for three weeks

Quoted from Rose

Still believe that if its something the birds can get over and build there own immunity up against you should let them and not keep treating them its seems once you start treating its something that you cant stop doing Ive had birds bred for me by those who believed in treating and there was always something wrong with them and all my other birds were fine

Rose, I have heard some instances where the birds are/or look like/ they are in perfect condition during the autumn months before pairing. yet when the breeding commences, the immunity goes through the back door, with the same ugly killing machine coming into operation again.

Dont know what the answer is to it Vic think the harm has been done with the way a lot have thought that antibiotics was the quick answer to anything that goes wrong just hope that the companies can keep up with producing antibiotics because what you get now seems to very quickly build up a resistance to them  Think at least the doctors realise that but then they arent making a lot of money selling them to you

Quoted from invalidusername

It's the same reason why doctors won't prescribe antibiotics at the drop of a hat - like they used to.  And the same reason I have to suffer with tonsilitis for three weeks

Who needs jaws, with paws like yours?

Jabbing up against  paratyphoid guarantees you next to nothing. The vaccine only immunises against a very small percentage of the 2000+ different avian strains. By all means get them tested for it if you feel your pigeons are under performing but don’t think for one minute that because you have jabbed you can then discount this disease for losses or poor performances.

It doesn’t answer your question Vic but it shows what were fighting against.

Quoted from Tony C

Jabbing up against  paratyphoid guarantees you next to nothing. The vaccine only immunises against a very small percentage of the 2000+ different avian strains. By all means get them tested for it if you feel your pigeons are under performing but don’t think for one minute that because you have jabbed you can then discount this disease for losses or poor performances.

It doesn’t answer your question Vic but it shows what were fighting against.

AREN'T WE ALL! lol.

With about only 10% replies, on something that is crucial in pigeon racing today. I have came to one conclusion, It will be too late, when the wise men, have gone.

I wouldn't dream of using Baytril and vaccinating. We use too much gear propping them up, keep too many stock pigeons, and don't push 'em far eneough.
I use cider vinegar and honey, natural yoghurt, and milton. I do treat for kanker and use Ivermectin for worms, but this is only occasional. When young, the birds need to establish their own immunity first, before treating with all and sundry. The overuse of drugs, in the livestock industry, has caused tremendous problems, and it's not a road I wish to go down.

Quoted from Vic

So! Is it a hush, hush game that we are in? Antibiotics? Never, never, they preach! Yet according to some, it's ok to use the wide spects, when it suits  them. As I said previously, for how long?

A GOOD AVIAN VETENARY DOCTOR , NEAR ME, COMMENTED , THAT PIGEON FANCIERS ARE THEIR OWN WORST ENEMY , IN USING ANTIBIOTICS WILLY NILLY, AND OTHER UN-NEEDFULL MEDICATION,,,,[SORRY VIC   DIDNT MEAN TO SHOUT   ]

Quoted from jimmy white

A GOOD AVIAN VETENARY DOCTOR , NEAR ME, COMMENTED , THAT PIGEON FANCIERS ARE THEIR OWN WORST ENEMY , IN USING ANTIBIOTICS WILLY NILLY, AND OTHER UN-NEEDFULL MEDICATION,,,,[SORRY VIC   DIDNT MEAN TO SHOUT   ]

And they will carry on doing that all the time it is being supplied freely to them I wonder how many look at the long term effects on what it is doing though or doesnt that matter as long as you have a cure to get your birds in the basket for this seasons racing

Well then I am another Luddite,thankfully,with two lofts of free range healthy racing birds,also a kit of rollers thanks to no doubt mostly old fashioned common sense stockmanship, I would I am sure use an anti-biotic if and when needed,it hasnt been for many years,nil,only the regular P.M.V. vaccination,and this beacuse its compulsory,would urge any fancier,to get back to basics,especially newbies to begin this way,even Medical Science is  finding using anti-biotics willy nilly are causing more problems than they solve,you can find as much benifit for our birds on supermarket shelves,for a fraction of what similar costs elsewhere,as for results when racing,as good if not better than many of those who appear to have a degree from Vetrinary College, putting this gunk into birds on a regular basis, has payback time eventuallyt.  

One thing i havn't seen pointed out and probably the reason for not many replies Vic is that there isn't a legal Vacine for Paratyphoid in this country is there?
Anybody vaccinating is obtaining it illegaly and by putting on here that they are jabbing are telling the world they are breaking the law!

Phil

Quoted from Merlin

Well then I am another Luddite,thankfully,with two lofts of free range healthy racing birds,also a kit of rollers thanks to no doubt mostly old fashioned common sense stockmanship, I would I am sure use an anti-biotic if and when needed,it hasnt been for many years,nil,only the regular P.M.V. vaccination,and this beacuse its compulsory,would urge any fancier,to get back to basics,especially newbies to begin this way,even Medical Science is  finding using anti-biotics willy nilly are causing more problems than they solve,you can find as much benifit for our birds on supermarket shelves,for a fraction of what similar costs elsewhere,as for results when racing,as good if not better than many of those who appear to have a degree from Vetrinary College, putting this gunk into birds on a regular basis, has payback time eventuallyt.  

you are priviliged never to have any sick birds. No one is suggesting you should use antibiotics without reason but to refuse to use any treatment on birds and just let them die is a bit perverted.

Doomen should hope they don't change the law and MAFF don't bring in compulsary testing and eradication of affected flocks because that will be doo racing finished once and for all, trust "me" a large percentage of lofts have this in them and it breaks out from time to time not alwas identified as para but definite causes illness in our birds.

And for the last time using antibiotics does not harm any animals imnune system why can't some of you "experts" get that through your heads.

Think you have been slightly misled on your last paragraph me   Antibiotics destroy not only the infection but they also destroy  the good bacteria (healthy gut flora) in the digestive tract

Quoted from Rose

Think you have been slightly misled on your last paragraph me   Antibiotics destroy not only the infection but they also destroy  the good bacteria (healthy gut flora) in the digestive tract

That was what i was told by an old fancier if a bird is healthy it should be able to fight illness itself if you use anti-biotics it weakens the birds imune system therefore leaving the bird open to other illnesses but i am no vet and neither was the chap who told me he has however had birds for 40+ years and he lost more birds since vaccinations were compulsory than ever he now keeps a few for his own pleasure and no longer races just a point