Welcome to the Pigeonbasics Forum! We would like to welcome you to our community and invite you to register an account or login. Being a registered member is important, as it gives you several advantages over the normal Guest status. After registering you will be able to download files and images, post messages, and access member-only portions of the forum - just to name a few. Registration is quick and simple, and only takes about a minute of your time.
I refer to your letter published in BHW on 12th August on scientific studies on Avian Flu and pigeons. I felt it could be read as proof “from Gordon Chalmers a very reputable and respected vet in the pigeon world” that the virus presented no danger for pigeons’ or pigeon fanciers’ health. Your letter said nothing about the serious human health implications this virus presents at this time.
I wrote a letter published in the BHW on 19th August, clearly spelling out the human health implications and cautioning that there was a need for reasonable and sensible precautions to be taken to protect both the owners and their pigeons against the Bird Flu virus.
Since the wide media coverage in the UK on 22nd August of the spread of the disease to Russia, http://www.Pigeonbasics.com has a message forum on Avian flu in which some concern has been expressed on the virus. I have done a bit of search & post for this forum which can be visited at:
Also on 22nd August the Dutch Government ordered free range poultry to be brought inside ‘to wild bird-proof’ sheds, as a precautionary measure against the spread of Bird Flu.
Now the main purpose of my contacting you is that your letter has been posted on the forum no fewer than 3 times as proof that H5N1 couldn’t get into pigeons. Now I find that curious because your letter clearly states the virus used in the experimental work actually came from pigeons! We have no access to Dr Kaleta’s work or paper.
I have an authors’ summary of a paper by Ellis, Trevor M et al, published in Avian Pathology, October 2004, Volume 33, Issue 5, P492 14p (the Hong Kong reference in my BHW letter) which describes the 2002 Avian Flu outbreak in Hong Kong. H5N1 was isolated from a wide variety of birds including a feral pigeon. I have attached this for your perusal.
I have also read an Avian Pathology 1996 paper on the study of feral pigeons in Mexico in which the investigators were looking for Paramyxo and Avian Flu virus presence in these birds – and found none.
It requires a major leap in the mind to make any connection between these two papers, and admittedly without a shred of scientific data to support that leap. It appears to me that in the space of 8 years, the virus has perhaps acquired a mutated capability of at least being able to ‘survive’ the passage through a pigeon. Your letter highlighting the Thailand pigeons lends circumstantial evidence to support this i.e. there is now the possibility of finding live H5N1 in pigeons where none appeared to exist before.
Pigeons in which H5N1 are present could now present a hazard of providing a potential bridge to the human flu virus in a sick owner. That is just what the World Health Organisation appears to fear most. Shouldn’t we be alert to that and take reasonable and sensible precautions against this becoming reality?
You may respond to me direct, or post on the pigeonbasics avian flu forum.
Letter posted to Scottish Homing Union on 29th August as under: Note that Linda the SHU Secretary is on holiday and I was advised on the phone to address my letter to the President:
29/8/05
John Barlow, President SHU Dear Mr Barlow,
Avian Influenza/ Avian Flu/ Bird Flu Precautions
I wrote a letter published in BHW on 19th August that there was a need for reasonable and sensible precautions to be taken to protect ourselves and our pigeons against the Bird Flu virus. This was in response to a letter published on the 12th from Gordon Chalmers which came to a curious conclusion that the virus couldn’t get into pigeons. Curious because the virus used in the experimental work described in his letter actually came from pigeons! Check this (in the bit about that work) for yourself.
Since the wide media coverage on 22nd August of the spread of the disease to Russia, Pigeonbasics.com has a message forum on Avian flu in which SHU and other members express concern on the virus. I have done a bit of search & post for this forum which can be visited at:
Also on 22nd August the Dutch Government ordered free range poultry to be brought inside ‘to wild bird-proof’ sheds, as a precautionary measure against the spread of Bird Flu.
The Dutch Poultry Industry co-operated wholeheartedly, because unlike anyone in the UK - government or industry – they have had first hand experience of it. In their 2003 outbreak, they lost millions of birds and one of their vets. You will agree losing a medical professional in animal care in a disease outbreak in birds is especially alarming. It is also a further reminder that this virus can kill us – even a professional who would have been taking all the necessary precautions.
My point then is that the Dutch Government have experience of this and have taken reasonable and sensible precautions which in their experience are sufficient to keep the birds (and their carers) safe – you ‘simply’ lock the birds up in a wild bird-proof building.
A loft is a wild bird-proof building. Locking healthy pigeons up now, before the virus gets to the UK, would then appear a reasonable and sensible precaution for all pigeon fanciers throughout the UK.
Bearing in mind the UK Governments’ slaughter approach in the last Foot & Mouth Epidemic involved healthy animals, I request that the Union consult Counsel - as a matter of some urgency - on my layperson’s reading of the Law of Precedent as it is / might be applied within the EC to the Dutch Government’s actions.
QUESTIONS:
‘Locking up healthy birds’ has been adopted in Holland – a part of the EC - as a precaution borne out of direct experience of dealing with Avian Flu. If in the light of the Dutch experience, this precaution can be shown to be effective in isolating the birds both from infection by the Avian Flu virus and from passing the virus to other birds: has the UK or any of its devolved Governments -also part of the EC but without direct experience in dealing with this specific disease - the right to order / impose / carry out the wholesale slaughter of healthy homing or other pigeons similarly locked up before any of the Bird Flu virus strains arrived in the UK?
If a challenge to such an Order was raised in Court would the Court be more likely to rule for the fancier / SHU or the Government?
Thank you,
PS - My birds have been locked up since Saturday 27th August 2005
You must have been on-line same time as me this morning, Preston Powerblast, and I missed your post going up. May be common sense to you - but there is a lot there that I wouldn't have thought about, like keeping sectioned birds seperate. Thanks for that.
Pigeon Racing is a way of life...live it, love it! Oldbird
Posts: 383
Gender: Male
Location: Dunoon, Scotland
I am finding this thread fascinating and informative. Congrats to everybody who has done so much in getting this information together. My background is in Environmental Health, and I am convinced that if any link is found between Avian Flu spread to humans and any type of bird keeping we will have a hard time ahead.
As Bruno has written to the SHU is there any member of the RPRA/NEHU/NWHU/WHU/NPA willing to do the same? Would it also be any value writing to our local MP/MSP/WAM etc to seek their input?
Well done Preston on the extremely sound advice about Biosecurity.
Preston Powerblast: Can you confirm my reading of your bioplan please:
(1) A solid roofed aviary, also wild bird-proof with equally secure and direct access to / from the loft couldn't be used?
(2) That all the internal security arrangements e.g. section by section would be necessary for a loft containing healthy pigeons without any access to the outside when our main purpose is to keep the outside environment outside, rather than what's quarantined inside from escaping out?
You could still use an aviary as a section, so long as it covered and will shut out the elements and wild birds from soiling into it. The best quarantine section would be a single section with direct access. But unless you intend to bring in new stock you wouldnt really need a quarantine section as you could isolate your own birds in a nestbox. As we always say if in doubt disinfect it. Even atomiser sprays are handy tools. An Ioniser is a very handy item to have in any loft as it keeps down dust and airborne particles. In general as you say keep outside, outside.
Hello (Bruno) : I was pleased to receive your Email with its cautionary theme today - something I do support whole heartedly, given the seriousness of the Influenza situation in the world these days. Like you, I believe we can't be too careful on this entire subject. I am also pleased that you responded in a letter to the BHW (I haven't seen it yet) so that pigeon fanciers do not become too smug about this entire issue. My point in sending the letter in the first place was to give pigeon fanciers some information that I had obtained from one of the world's researchers to try to provide for them, some level of reassurance that pigeons appear to be a lesser evil than species of shore birds and wild waterfowl in the dissemination of Avian Influenza. Too often, I find that pigeons automatically become a favourite 'whipping boy' whenever the public is aroused on issues such as this one. As a fancier myself - but not an expert on Influenza - I wanted to try to provide some balance on the role of pigeons in this disease. In reality, absolute certainty that pigeons are not involved in Influenza does not seem to be possible, and given the tendency of this agent to mutate, I would be loathe to discount pigeons entirely. A few years ago, I read the paper by Panigrahy et al* and last year, conferred with him by telephone on this matter when there was an outbreak of Avian Influenza in poultry in British Columbia, Canada, and federal authorities were prepared to destroy all pigeons within their quarantine area. Dr Panigrahy felt that, while pigeons generally seem to be resistant to strains of Influenza virus, it was possible for them to be mechanical carriers (on their feathers) in the right circumstances. Hence this is a risk that can't be overlooked. I have also appended one of Dr Swayne's recent references** * Panigrahy B, DA Senne, JC Pedersen, AL Shafer and JE Pearson. 1996. Susceptibility of pigeons to avian influenza. Avian Dis 40: 600-604. ** Perkins LE and DE Swayne. 2002. Pathogenicity of a Hong Kong-origin H5N1 highly pathogenic avian influenza virus for emus, geese, ducks, and pigeons. Avian Dis 46: 53-63. Finally, I must say again that I welcome any clarification or caution you express here, on a website, or through the pigeon or other press on the important issue of Avian Influenza and its potential in humans. Thanks very much for contacting me on this important matter. Sincerely, Gordon Chalmers, DVM.
You were kind enough to print balanced letters from Gordon Chalmers and myself on this subject in the BHW 12th and 19th August issues. Since the wide media coverage on 22nd August of the spread of the disease to Russia, Pigeonbasics.com has a message forum on Avian flu in which SHU and other members express concern on the virus. I have done a bit of search & post for this forum which can be visited at: http://www.pigeonbasics.com/forum/blah/Blah.pl?b=gen,m=1124999952
Also on 22nd August the Dutch Government ordered free range poultry to be brought inside ‘to wild bird-proof’ sheds, as a precautionary measure against the spread of Bird Flu.
The Dutch Poultry Industry co-operated wholeheartedly, because unlike anyone in the UK - government or industry – they have had first hand experience of it. In their 2003 outbreak, they lost millions of birds and one of their vets. You will agree losing a medical professional in animal care in a disease outbreak in birds is especially alarming. It is also a further reminder that this virus can kill us – even a professional who would have been taking all the necessary precautions.
My point then is that the Dutch Government have experience of this and have taken reasonable and sensible precautions which in their experience are sufficient to keep the birds (and their carers) safe – you ‘simply’ lock the birds up in a wild bird-proof building. A loft is a wild bird-proof building. Locking healthy pigeons up now, before the virus gets to the UK, would then appear a reasonable and sensible precaution for all pigeon fanciers throughout the UK.
However, one of the counter-arguments for taking precautionary measures now has been the mistaken belief that Gordon Chalmers and other professionals have said our pigeons present no risk at all to our health in this disease. I have contacted Dr Chalmers and this is his response.
Hello Mr Brown: I was pleased to receive your Email with its cautionary theme today - something I do support wholeheartedly, given the seriousness of the Influenza situation in the world these days. Like you, I believe we can't be too careful on this entire subject. I am also pleased that you responded in a letter to the BHW (I haven't seen it yet) so that pigeon fanciers do not become too smug about this entire issue. My point in sending the letter in the first place was to give pigeon fanciers some information that I had obtained from one of the world's researchers to try to provide for them, some level of reassurance that pigeons appear to be a lesser evil than species of shore birds and wild waterfowl in the dissemination of Avian Influenza. Too often, I find that pigeons automatically become a favourite 'whipping boy' whenever the public is aroused on issues such as this one. As a fancier myself - but not an expert on Influenza - I wanted to try to provide some balance on the role of pigeons in this disease. In reality, absolute certainty that pigeons are not involved in Influenza does not seem to be possible, and given the tendency of this agent to mutate, I would be loathe to discount pigeons entirely. A few years ago, I read the paper by Panigrahy et al* and last year, conferred with him by telephone on this matter when there was an outbreak of Avian Influenza in poultry in British Columbia, Canada, and federal authorities were prepared to destroy all pigeons within their quarantine area. Dr Panigrahy felt that, while pigeons generally seem to be resistant to strains of Influenza virus, it was possible for them to be mechanical carriers (on their feathers) in the right circumstances. Hence this is a risk that can't be overlooked. I have also appended one of Dr Swayne's recent references** * Panigrahy B, DA Senne, JC Pedersen, AL Shafer and JE Pearson. 1996. Susceptibility of pigeons to avian influenza. Avian Dis 40: 600-604. ** Perkins LE and DE Swayne. 2002. Pathogenicity of a Hong Kong-origin H5N1 highly pathogenic avian influenza virus for emus, geese, ducks, and pigeons. Avian Dis 46: 53-63. Finally, I must say again that I welcome any clarification or caution you express here, on a website, or through the pigeon or other press on the important issue of Avian Influenza and its potential in humans. Thanks very much for contacting me on this important matter. Sincerely, Gordon Chalmers, DVM.
I have contacted the SHU on the first part of my letter (Lock-up now) and requested certain legal implications be explored immediately as a matter of urgency. I would suggest you contact your own Unions too. My birds have been on lock-up since Saturday 27th August 2005.
Yours,
Well, don't know about how you lot feel. Well BLOODY done, everyone of you . I for one feel we worked well together, acted always in the best interests - no self-interest apparant anywhere and we have achieved much. Pity UK fanciers, and fanciers world-wide couldn't work together a bit better I think we'll need them on-side before the next round - with you-know-who.
i see that power blast is working with chickens , farm animals etc and advises us to keep our lofts disinfected which im sure most of us would agree with, but i did notice he said STRONG disinfectant ,and [[sorry my freind bruno[ milton in the water, i wonder if you could recommend a proper and safe disinfectant that would be effective and suitable, for pigeons i.e for stepping trays at door entrance ,loft etc , i was looking up vanodine v 18 and wondered if this would be strong enough, for this. i know there are many disinfectants on the market, but i was thinking of something that was used agriculturally and strong enough to stop infection spreading. i take all the other points as bruno pointed out i,e, clothing ,footwear etc. i take it that vanodine is an iodophor, and that can be put in the water also . years ago we used aquas iodine, is that still on the market ,and would that be any good ? any good sugestions power blast? jimmy
i take it that if we disinfect, confine birds, and birdproof lofts aviaries etc that, this would have a desired effect, im now thinking of the foot and mouth epidemic, where we seen mass culls, and i think we will remember the government, without hesitation commanding this.so i take it that the same government could promt this very easy[.lets just hope not,], COULD they have any reason to ? IF we were to take all these measures...It seems to be the free flying birds that are the main risk.i,e geese, ducks ,and certain migratory birds, allthough im looking at the worst scenario, and the government ordered a mass cull ,like the foot and mouth disease, to me it would seem completely senseless, how could they possibly have a mass cull, when there are more feral pigeons, free flying,than racing pigeons, surely this would be an impossible task, just some passing thoughts at the moment .
I dont mean use milton as a disinfectant, I dont really know if our disinfectants are available to the public as we buy in bulk. I think the two main ones that you can buy off the shelf is Avisafe or Virkon S. I use stuff similar to Vanodine. But i suggested Milton in the drinking water water as I use this myself and know it to be safe. http://www.evansvanodine.co.uk/contact-us.htm this is a site that will give you some basic info on disinfectants. Farm supply shops are a good source for disinfectants. (In my own opinion) I think the government reacted a bit slow to the foot and mouth crisis and could have introduced stricter measures sooner. When we disinfect we first pressure wash using water heated to over 90 degrees C, then we wash disinfect with a dilution rate at 100 to 1. http://www.defra.gov.uk/footandmouth/pdf/disinfectants_scotland.PDF This is another source of suppliers of disinfectants and their usage. Hope this helps. Another thing that has been brought to my attention is that some people use rain water that has been collected in water butts to water their pigeons, this too would have to stop.
It's a belt and braces, cover every angle 'strategy' Jimmy:
(1) I think a loft full of pigeons is an easier place to start a killing spree than a park full of wild birds. And while I hope that this extreme action won't figure in the governments' plans, I want us all to be ready and prepared for such an action - even though we hope it never happens. (2) Doostalker is an environmental health professional - and don't you run for cover either - perhaps you can tell us what the Councils and other 'official bodies' REALLY think of pigeon fanciers? Are we all seen as Jack Duckworths? If we are then we are about to transform our image in both officialdom and Joe public's eyes. We are about to seize the 'moral high ground' by demonstrating (hopefully to a loft) that we are very responsible people and do care about the our birds' effects on others. (3) Last but not least - the main reason we are doing this is to protect our birds and ourselves - our health and our lives - from probably the worst threat of disease that we shall probably ever have to face. (4) And the NEXT time we voice complaint about something - we are more likely to receive a very sympathetic ear, in a lot more places.
A very special thanks to you, Hyacinth for telling us about the Frazier Valley outbreak in Canada. I haven't been able to find anything about this on the web and without your post we would probably still have known nothing about it. To be honest, I thought the outbreak might have been West Nile Virus. I apologise for having had that doubt which crept into one or two of my posts. I was also unaware that Kevin Ball was a lawyer and a judge before I emailed him for 'non-legal' information I will email him again this morning apologising for that mistake and advise him that he could be hearing from the SHU legal team for advice. I thank you again for that lead - a legal team having 'learned counsel' with previous experience in taking on government on pigeons sounds very much like a winning combination to me. Still leaves us open on another front though. There may now be a Bird Flu Risk from migrating geese from the West - when the birding people and all the EC governments are looking to the east. What do we do about that one?
WEBMASTER: Would you ring fence the Avian Flu forum please and ensure that it is not deleted from the website. Would you also ensure KEY WORDS: Avian Influenza, Avian Flu, Bird Flu and Pigeons to ensure WEB Search Engines pick this conference up? Thanks.
Doostalker and Preston Powerblast: I have started to put your bioplan advice into action from this morning by installing a Boot Wash outside my loft. I've also installed a paper bag over my head because I feel a right **%£ while using it Again Jimmy's Vanodine has a great feature - the colour tells you if it is still active. I wondered if it was the same with my Virkon boot wash or is there a time limit on its use. Next question: bearing in mind that this is a disease prevention rather than a disease containment arrangement - how deep should the water be and am I safe enough pouring the old wash down the drain? Or will SEPA have something to say about that? I use Virkon to disinfect the drain anyway. Another caution: If you have mobility problems take extra care using the boot wash. My basin is only big enough for one shoe at a time and stepping in and out with a drinker in each hand is quite a balancing act.
WEBMASTER: Would you ring fence the Avian Flu forum please and ensure that it is not deleted from the website. Would you also ensure KEY WORDS: Avian Influenza, Avian Flu, Bird Flu and Pigeons to ensure WEB Search Engines pick this conference up? Thanks.
As I am the only person who has access to delete posts I can assure you that I won't delete this one Keywords are more or less defunct as to have any effect on search engine placing, it is more about the actual content of the page (use those keywords lots in posts). I will submit this page to the major search engines, however this in itself may not help too much, Google has a ranking system 'Page Rank' which works on how many people link to the page; if other sites/pages link to this one that should improve its positioning in the rankings
Paper bag!!Hehe. reminds me of when I'm fogging hen houses I wear a plastic hood. You only need a shallow tray for a boot wash. Any disinfectant is ok down the drain. Most disinfectants are usually ok for three or four days some are said to be ok for a week. Hope you put eye holes in the paper bag
Home
Portal
Search
Register
Login
Welcome to the Pigeonbasics Forum!
Print Thread
Report to Moderator
Logged
E-mail
Private message
Thanks for that.
Male
Site
WLM
Skype
