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Slept on your last post, Preston Powerblast, and I am still not clear on the point you are making.  
Sticking to pigeons: Are you suggesting to Fifestay and others who were pretty stirred up by Avian Flu and had little information on it from the government source you quote : Do nothing / There isn't any need?

Thats what the powers that be are saying at the moment.

Thanks for being clear on that, Preston Powerblast. Because THAT is exactly NOT what the-powers-that-be are saying. What you posted was a DEFRA Press Release, a very much cut down version of their full statement. If you had bothered to read it, or post it, you would have found that while everyone else is on the lookout for H5N1, DEFRA are in fact talking about HFA1. They have also requested Continental Europe to step up surveillance. The full statement is available at:


http://www.defra.gov.uk/news/statements/050826.htm


(2) The Organic Farming Industry are not happy with DEFRA’s lead either. For the measures the UK poultry farmers want DEFRA to take, see:

http://www.organicfarmers.org.uk/news/news_more.php?id=82


(3) Shadow’s post about the Finland gull also changes the picture. It will be three weeks before we know what this gull was carrying. For this and conflicting expert opinion on it see.

http://www.yorkshiretoday.co.uk/ViewArticle2.aspx?SectionID=55&ArticleID=1128662


My OPINION on how the gull changes the picture is this.

(1) DEFRA (and every other birding body) are looking for migrating birds. Don’t think a gull falls under ‘migrating’ birds. There are thousands of them in every UK Port town (on every roof) and on every UK landfill site.
(2) Like all the other ‘line-of-flight’ enthusiasts, my binoculars were trained on a line through central, mainland Europe, Germany, the Balkans, Belguim, France etc. This gull is on the North Atlantic Coast with only Denmark, Norway and the North Sea between the UK and ‘it’.
(3) I cannot believe that it will take three weeks to find out what this gull was carrying. Foot&Mouth had already had a three week head start on DEFRA before they woke up to the fact that it was present and by the time they sat up and paid some attention, they had an epidemic on their hands.

Oh, Hyacinth, I've also taken your advice - I've a letter in the post to the SHU asking they take legal advice on the position of pigeon fanciers who lock their birds up before the virus arrives here, should DEFRA order a mass cull of pigeons. My birds are on lock-up from Saturday 27th August 05. Me proof duly posted  

Your point is what, exactly?
Where does it mention pigeons???
Where does it mention mass cull???
Where does defra mention locking birds up???

dont mean to stick my nose in but calm down lads its not a arguing matter

You are very welcome to come in Carter any time you see the need.  
And so are the rest of you.  
This isn't Bruno's conference.  
I don't mind being the go-for, ferreting out information and posting it up for all to see.  
What I do object to though is 'the shoot the messenger mentality' which some of you with minus type fingers are all too ready to adopt. Try using them on a web browser for a change and do something positive and get out there to see what information there is on this thing - an bring it to this forum.
Hyacinth is right - forewarned is forearmed. But we surely need to cover all the angles.
And as for what has this to do with pigeons Preston Powerblast- see the earlier post about the virus for an experiment coming from pigeons; have a look at DEFRA's policy on slaughter during its last epidemic. My point is simple (repeat) 'Cover all the angles'.

First time post for me, but this is the latest from Canada.

Dear Dr. Chalmers



Dr. Kaleta recently published review of Avian Influenza (AI) in pigeons and concluded, as I also believe, that pigeons are resistant to avian influenza viruses and have not been a reservoir or vector of the virus. DTW.Deutsche.tierarztliche.Wochenschrift 111(12):467-472, 2004.



Other studies have support the resistance of pigeons to AI virus infections. Some people have confused die-offs in pigeons to avian influenza when paramyxovirus type 1 is a common cause of neurological disease and death in pigeons and not avian influenza.



We have conducted experimental studies in pigeons using viruses isolated from dead pigeons in Thailand. Even direct inoculation of these viruses into nasal cavity of pigeons caused limited infections with between 60-80% of the pigeons not becoming infected. This suggests the mortality from H5N1 HPAI virus in pigeons may have resulted from synergy between AI infection and some other pathogen.



The "illness in school children" is an unsubstantiated rumor. No AI virus was isolated from the children and I am unaware of any evidence of infection.



With this scientific information, it is unlikely that banning pigeons will have any impact on AI ecology and will not reduce the risk AI infections of poultry or humans. The primary species that have natural infections with AI viruses are wild ducks and shorebird (turnstones, gulls, etc.). Columbiformes and passerines are not reservoirs and they are rarely incidental hosts following spill-over of the viruses from infected domestic poultry.



Regards



David E. Swayne, DVM, PhD
Laboratory Director
Southeast Poultry Research Laboratory
USDA/ARS
934 College Station Road
Athens, Georgia
Telephone: 706-546-3433
Fax: 706-546-3161

I read lot of articles on this defra financial times and other websites i think the concern is that this virus is capable of mutating and giving another strain of the virus that will be much worse than the ones known about I think there was some mention in the list of animals that could be culled was pigeons but i would presume that would depend on whether any strain of the virus showed up in them or if there was evidence that they could be carriers   There seems to be some conflicting reports on avian flu and what can carry the disease im a bit under the impression it is really an unknown quantity and none of them are really very sure about it

Preston,

Had it not been for the fact that Kevin Ball is a Lawyer and a Judge and had the knowledge and balls to fight the Federal Canadian Government with the help of Dr. Gordon chalmers, the racing pigeons in the Frazier Valley of Canada would have been exterminated make no mistake about it.  Do you want this to happen in the UK, ignore it until it's too late!!!!!  Don't be an ostrich burying your head in the sand, extract the said head and be prepared for anything that may be thrown at you and the United Kingdom Pigeon Flyers, it could be too late when the externination squads arrive at your loft.

I do not wish to sound like I'm being a prima donna or trying to argue on this poiny but some US Fanciers had the same attitude when Exotic Newcastle Disesase Hit California, Nevada and Arizona a couple of years ago and tried to act as if nothing was going off, unfortunately for the birds some of these guys had their flocks disposed of by the Feds

in an earlier post, hyacinth is strongly saying press the unions, i noticed through all these posts, that bruno seems to have done this, to be forwarded is to be forearmed which is good and proper advice,i also have looked at brunos informative post, which at least gives us some insight to the problem, which i must admit i didnt know,but i suspect there are many others like me,i then read roses last comments, and have to agree with her. this is such a wide and varied topic, that every shred of information, from the proper places, should be posted. the last thing we should do is start the gossip brigade, as we know, or as i know,leads to no where, if you tell a pigeon fancier in the street some thing by the time it goes to the tenth fancier, its a completely differant story, so i say stick to the facts, and most of all find out the facts,, the true facts.  most of the papers, news,tv. etc have come up with conflicting evidence, i for one will be reading and taking in all what is said and as i said b4 this is very worrying not only for pigeon fliers but for humans also.

Thank you all for your posts. Thought perhaps the virus had arrived and I had only me for company for the rest of me natural.    Now there's a scary thought.  

Here's another one. This is the authors' cut-down of the original article which sparked off the letter the BHW published on 12/8/05:

Outbreaks of highly pathogenic H5N1 avian influenza have occurred in Hong Kong in chickens and other poultry in 1997, 2001, twice in 2002 and 2003. High mortality rates were seen in gallinaceous birds (Bruno – gallinaceous birds = related to or resembling chickens, put the dictionary down, Jimmy) but not in domestic or wild waterfowl or other wild birds until late 2002 when highly pathogenic H5N1 avian influenza occurred in waterfowl (geese, ducks and swans), captive Greater Flamingo ( Phoenicopterus ruber ) and other wild birds (Little Egret Egretta garzetta ) at two waterfowl parks and from two dead wild Grey Heron ( Ardea cinerea ) and a Black-headed Gull ( Larus ridibundus ) in Hong Kong. H5N1 avian influenza virus was also isolated from a dead feral pigeon ( Columba livia ) and a dead tree sparrow ( Passer montanus ) during the second outbreak. The first waterfowl outbreak was controlled by immediate strict quarantine and depopulation 1 week before the second outbreak commenced. Control measures implemented for the second outbreak included strict isolation, culling, increased sanitation and vaccination. Outbreaks in gallinaceous birds occurred in some live poultry markets concurrently with the second waterfowl outbreak, and infection on a chicken farm was detected 1 week after the second waterfowl park outbreak was detected, on the same day the second grey heron case was detected. Subsequent virus surveillance showed the outbreaks had been contained.

(Bruno - please note the variety of birds involved here, including a sparrow and a pigeon.)

I would then ask you to look again at Bill Bennie's post (and thanks for it):
"virus isolated from dead pigeons in Thailand".

I take all your points about nobody really seems to know what they are talking about - EXCEPT maybe the Dutch government and the Dutch Poultry Industry who have been through this before, lost millions of their birds, and one of their own vets - a professional who would have surely been taking all the right precautions - and still died. They have come up with a precaution that we can easily adopt and which harms no-one, our birds, ourselves, our families, our communities: LOCK UP THE BIRDS BEFORE THE VIRUS GETS HERE. Because waiting until then will be too late.


I can't spell it out any clearer than this. TAKE CARE OF YOURSELVES AND YOUR BIRDS - YOUR LIVES MAY DEPEND UPON IT. Keep Yourself informed and if you hear something - get it posted here, pronto, so that we all know about it, and can get it checked out.

BEST REGARDS ALL.

Hit a bit of a brick wall on this one. Has anyone access to the Journal Dr Kaleta published his work on Avian Influenza in?

The magazine is I think, print only (i.e. not electronic) and German, called the Deutsche Tierarztliche Wochenschrift, published in Hannover. We need issue 111(12): pages 467-472, from the year 2004.

The article may also have been either published or translated into English.

Next question: Sprechen zie Deutche? If it is in german, who'll translate - don't all volunteer at once now!!!

If I sounded a bit abrupt in my earlier posts, then i must appologise.
But myself and people in the same business as me are the ones who help prevent the spread of disease, we are the ones on the front line.
We disinfect trucks, premises machinery, poultry farms.
When the risk becomes a threat we get told.
We were the poor guys parked on a country road in the middle of nowhere washing down and disinfecting trucks when the foot and mouth crisis hit.
We were working flat out, but we do get advance warning and get told how proceed and have to adhere to strict guidelines.
At the moment all that is being circulated is guidelines for better Biosecurity

You're professional expertise in Bio-security couldn't have been revealed at a more opportune time, Preston Powerblast. I hope you'll post some advice AND take a look at the 'layperson' biosecurity advice I posted, and pick as many holes in it as you are able - because I and others don't want holes in any system we adopt. Better plug now, than lose pigeons later AND put our own health at risk.
As you have had first hand experience on the 'second' line in the Foot&Mouth epidemic, you'll perhaps agree that DEFRA were too slow off the mark.
Thank you for your post. Good to know we have you out there.
BEST REGARDS

Bull by the horn time. Need to approach Gordon Chalmers on (in my view) the curious conclusion of Dr Kaleta's work.
By analagy its like saying:-

Well, that's my work finished.
Oh, what was it about?
Proving there's no monsters in Loch Ness. I've done it, there aren't any.
Excellent work. That's an excellent monster specimen in the jar - where did you get it from?
Loch Ness.

Should have said I'm working up an email now. Probably in for a right goring!!!!

reading more  about bird flu for the lay man, such as me. ....          for more than a century, bird flu has been circulating among birds, particularly domesticated fowl,but recent attention has been called to avian influenza since some strains infected humans.no longer is bird flu relegated to pigs and birds,as the virus has strengthened and mutated, resulting in a contagion that can move from bird to human.human cases of bird flu have caused infections and death across the globe as scientists struggle to identify the dangerous strains and prevent a fatal pandemic.    we long have known that avian flu existed in animals, often killing wild and domestic populations. these viruses belong to related kinds of flu. that can evolve and mutate just like any virus. we used to be primarily concerned with losing valuable birds that were providing eggs or meat to poultry farmers. however, in 1997 that changed when bird flu appeared to prove fatal for people in hong kong.       a pathogenic, or active strain of bird flu will kill birds quickly and spread rapidly through a population. if a wild, , migratory bird catches flu , it can carry it many miles to other wild or domesticated groups.these viruses evolve in two ways, through DRIFT and SHIFT. DRIFT  refers toinexact replication, such that newer viruses are further from the original genetic material,  but share enough d.n.a. that they are still only spread amongst a single species, when a virus SHIFTS, it means that the genes of one virus mix, or breed, with a differant virus, usually inside a carrier.due to SHIFT, bird flu mixed with a human flu, and was thus able to infect humans through direct contact with birds....HUMAN CASES OF BIRD FLU ARE INCREDIBLY ALARMING,AND RAISED THE CONCERN OF VIROLOGISTS and government agencies in china and hong kong, vietnam,canada, and other countries. this iminent pandemic could only be controlled by vast slaughter of millions of fowl to contain the virus that spreads by air, water, and soil. the bird flu is especialy dangerous because our immune systems dont have any antibodies to handle something that used to be relegated to animals. thus, it takes hold with un precedented force, settles in the lungs, and resists anti viral and anti bacterial medication...... most health experts researching and fighting the incidence of human bird flu do not have an optomistic out look. they point out that the pathogen has not appeared to evolve such that human to human contact is con tagious, yet it remains that people working with fowl, swimming in infected rivers, playing areas where carcasses were buried, or breathing air near poultry processing plant, can lead to infection.   ..... this is the definition of avian flu, according to  the european comission, health and consumer                 protection directorate general

Biosecurity is basic common sense.
If it comes down to it then fanciers need to keep a strict cleaning routine.
protective footwear and overclothing should be worn when entering the loft, preferably footwear than can be disinfected. A tray of disinfectant that you could stand in when entering and exiting the loft.
Over clothing that could be washed in the washer.
Dont let stray birds into your loft.
cover all aviaries.
Have an active rodent control system, be vigilant for evidence of vermin, rats, mice.
Feed bins drinkers food hoppers must be cleaned and maintained regular.
Feed should only be obtained from a mill or supplier woh operates in accordance with the relevant Defra and UKASTA codes of practice.
Keep all sections seperate and maintain them as if the were a seperate loft.
Dont let other fanciers in and out of your lofts.
Buying New Stock.
                            These should be kept in seprate section and isolated from the rest of your birds and quarantined for a minimum of 14-21 days.
Never re enter your main loft after dealing with isolated stock until you have washed and changed into clean overalls and thoroughly diinfected your footwear.
Double bag and dispose of all your waste carefully.
One scraper for each section and disinfect after use.
Use a clean bag or vessel per section.
One teaspoon of Milton per 8 pints of water could also be added to your drinkers to stop any germs of diseases being spread via the water drinker.
Remember: That all perches and floors should be thouroughly cleaned before being disinfected as most disinfectants fail to penetrate.
Keep domestic animals away from the lofts.
But as I said before its nearly all common sense and these measures are only implemented in extremes.
Dont buy cheap disinfectant use only recommended stuff.
Most dilution are approx 100 to 1.

Brilliant , if frightening, Jimmy.