Pigeonbasics.com

VIRKON S - USES AS A DISINFECTANT IN WATER

Second attempt on promised Virkon S extract for Mealybar.. Savage cut-down of item extracted from company web site  for obvious reasons:

http://www.antecint.co.uk/main/virkons.htm


Terminal Cleanout: 0.5% solution. Dose header tank and drain system leave for at least 1 hour and flush through with clean water.


Continuous Water Sanitation: 0.1% solution. Dose header tank as required or apply through dosing system..


Litres of Water to be sanitised.
100 litres = 500g or 100g of Virkon S  per Terminal Cleanout.


Yes, Mealybar, on the face of it you are correct that Virkon S can be used to disinfect water. But take a closer look at where this water comes from and what it is used for. IT ISN’T DRINKING WATER because this water comes from a header tank and is used for cleaning out operations within ‘the terminal’. Sanitation of this water makes sense too, because there’s not much sense in hosing away the manure on the floor to get rid of bugs etc when the water you are using is also contaminated.

hi bruno, as i said before ,i put milton and water in a stained cup with grain at the bottom, the cup was spottless after 10 mins      i then put a cup of water with milton in, then put a birds beak infor a second till it bubbled, the result was cup spotless, i then done both these things but added feathers and even droppings, poured this out ,rinsed, cup spotless,now any one can try this them selves [3 differant cups coffee stained] now i really am at a loss as you say it becomes useless when ever it touches protein or birds saliva,surely this prooves the opposite, then you went on to say it becomes useless   [salt and water]when its touched by human hand, well i even out my finger in the cup as well, same result, try this bruno and you will see for yourself  i must be going off my nut    please nobody answer that, but seriously try it

does any one remember the water sterilzing tablets that old hand used to sell, the name escapes me at the moment, they were in the same wee alluminium containers as harcanker, coryzium, vit c    etc  i dont even know if you can still get them, i know that coryzium capsules had to go off the market for some reason ,but they worked, but these sterilizing tabs, i would be interested to know what was in them, as they worked as well. can anyone help?

Milton Fluid is made of a solution of 2% sodium hypochlorite, 16.5% sodium chloride and water. Sodium Chloride is common household salt.

According to the manufacturers, Sodium Hypochlorite breaks down to salt and water on contact with protein – i.e. adds more water and salt to the existing solution. Don’t know what concentration of salt and water is now, Jimmy, but it was already at 16.5% before we started. But you now have a dirty cup full of pretty strong salty water. Salt and water are cleaning agents. Check out salt’s cleaning properties for yourself: -

http://www.pagewise.com/household-salt-uses.htm

Now a real chemistry professor might have tested for Sodium Hypochlorite. Neither a chemist or a professor (nor likely to be either) I’m sorry I can’t help in how you would test for it. Make sure you don’t blow anything up thro’ there Jimmy!!!!  Great fun this innit – just like being back at school again. (Crashes of thunder and flashes of lightnin' as a backdrop)

hi bruno  glad to hear from you . now im going to try the same experiment with salt and water ,only problam is ive no dirty cups now, which is unusual for me , hope you realize this is costing me a fortune on milton, the woman in sainsburys must think i have triplets at 60  haha ,think ill just let her beleive it, give my mind a treat, jimmy

Jimmy, not trying to read your mind or anything, your query suggests to me that you are looking for another steriliser for the drinking water. Before you do, can I take you back to your David Palmer quote? I feel you may have missed something of a very common sense nature there and one that few could fault.
David Palmer talks about clean water changed regularly. Now that basically is what I do and I think everybody else did in the past. I change it at least twice a day and if the youngsters decide to have a bath in it (no doubt to give me the hint) or it gets dirty - I change it again. Feel a bit like a waiter at times, but worth it for peace of mind. I personally don't like anything in the drinking water at all.

Sorry I've been away the last few days, I think the topic has moved on a wee bit now, but thanks for all the info you've dug up.

One thing I can help you with is; the smilies; if you click 'More Post Options' or the 'Reply' button on the end of a topic, it will bring you to a page with the smilies, and other stuff too

Yep - GOT THAT FINE. Thanks Mealybar. Seems the quick way in is the bare way in too. And there's all that format / table stuff that caused me so much grief. Thanks again.

my query on the old hand water sterilizing tablets have been answered by fellow fanciers, they were hypochlorite and they worked, so at the moment im happy with the milton , but doing a few more tests, and  hopefully get more information from a practising vet , should  clear up things hopefully, remember im only talking about for crop infections, and not for continual usage as i advised on an earlier post,  keeping the water clean , changing it twice a day is not a new thing ive been doing it for 50 years, but there are other places birds will drink from, when their out.sir colin who was 2 nat nantes, used to go to the tap sink in the yard where i used to keep them, at one time, this sink was filthy with  the grey hound lads washing their dogs dishes etc etc there will be many that can verify that. the water was spotless in the loft, but he would persist on drinking this water,but i allways used to put milton in it, it never did him any harm he won 5000 pounds for me, so im sure you can see how i have my reservations on this subject  jimmy

Glad you brought that one up Jimmy. Used to take my daughter, son's partner and grandson down to the local park to feed the local wildlife on the pond. Prided myself in the fact that we were the only family group who could feed the geese, ducks and the resident pair of swans by hand... don't recommend the swan bit to others though - need to be very wary and very, very careful, especially with children and dogs around. Coots and Moorhens were different though - wouldn't come that close to take a nibble.
Doing this for years before the penny dropped and the REAL point of my post.
While the geese and the other water birds fed mainly on the weed on the pond's bottom, the geese also ate the grass on the banks - the same grass that they and all the other birds and dogs had crapped on and humans had walked all over.
On the pond, they all obviously had a crap in the water too, and swam in it, dived to the bottom of it, bathed in it ......and drank it.
In all the years I went over there - nae sick birds.
One of my earlier posts spoke of 60 millions years of evolution on the birds' immune system and a caution to interfere with it at your peril.
In the main, I like to depend on the bird's own immune system doing the job it was designed too - without me interfering.
But these are dangerous times and we must take extra precautions. Disease can spread through water through saliva and dropping contamination.
If we accept that our birds are healthy then we should work to keep them that way.
In the current climate it would be foolish to allow our birds to drink regularly from water that wild birds also have access to.
And it would therefore also seem foolish to allow wild birds access to our birds' drinking water.
For the time being at least.
 

just a thought on yb sickness, we seem to have had a taste of it from all over  the uk       which never happened years ago     what causes it?   whats so differant now, as it was years ago,, we all say  we have more ybs nowadays but really there were still many big lofts and big team ybs,then as well, there were also as many dirty lofts as there were clean lofts ,i would go as far to say cleaner now, the birdages then, were far more than now, 5 to 6000 birds to rennes, 700 in my own old club, of course there were more members then, but when you think of it there were just as many pigeons then as there is now ,so why is this just happened in the last few years.when this first reared its ugly head, i remember getting a phone call from cornwall from a fancier who had this [who had a small loft and about 20 birds] then at the same time, it appeared up here, this would approx be about ten years ago. there was no way these birds came in contact with each other so that would kind of suggest that it was airborne so if it was airborne, why again did we not have that years ago, its the same air and the same wind. and the same water albeit  differant water in differant parts of the country , just as it was then, so really [and this is a complete shot in the dark]the only thing we all had in common was the food, be it differant food brand names .the maples, maize and certain grains etc  were mostly imported,from the same places. now i often wonder if these grains are grown the same as years ago, are they forced or are they fertilized or whatever, the main thing i was getting at , are they grown the same way as they were years ago, i just wondered, and if they werent grown the same way as they used to be. could this just possibly be the root [pardon the pun]  of the problem.,as the yb sickness seems to  be a digestive disorder which is generally to do with food  , which again can cause secondry infections     just a thought jimmy

Can't really answer your question on the way that the grains we feed our birds are farmed, Jimmy, but I've discovered a bit on feeding Organic Farmed poultry which will be of special interest to you and everyone who keeps pigeons.
Had a look at the Organic Growers' Control Manual, a DEFRA publication. Section 8.4 is about feeding poultry reared for Organic produce. All their feedstuffs: grains, minerals and vitamins are organically grown. No fertilisers, No genetically modified grain, no 'made in a laboratory' minerals or vitamins.
Wonder if the big boys would bag mixtures of these organic grains for us. I for one would be interested in it.

Some fanciers will probably swear by there own products and I will not say they are wrong, But I cartainly know one which is a proven remedy and swear by it so you can make up your own mind. MYCOSTATIN! you can get it from the vet at approx £4.50 per 60ml bottle , mix it at the rate of 1ml to 1pint of water and get a syringe with a tube of approx 75-100ml long on the end put approx 30ml of this mixture in the syringe and down the birds neck next day they will be clear and that is a promise also feed them on depurative for 3-4 days 3 or 4 times a day and just a little at a time
after a week they will be able to race again with no after effects. I GUARANTEE THIS WILL WORK TO YOUR SATISFACTION  Good Luck

Had a look around for information on your Mycostatin, Davy. Couldn't come up with animal applications, but the human application gives a clear enough picture of what it is. It is an antifungal - e.g. marketed as Nystatin for Thrush (Candidas - a yeast).

As is my usual, I also had a look at known side effects - it can cause digestive upset (which in the circumstances is the LAST thing we want to do) - and for any recommended alternative treatments. Apart from diet changes, these included:

(1)Try some beneficial bacteria
(2)Take a supplement that contains 10 billion colony-forming units a day of acidophilus or bifidobacteria to control yeast in the intestine
(3)To reduce yeast in the intestine, try garlic (5,000 mcg a day of allicin potential in an enteric-coated supplement), or oregano oil (0.2 to 0.4 ml a day of a coated supplement)

I do not believe a one day's course of anything will cure anything, Davy, and the application by a tube down the bird's throat is, I think you will agree, wholly impractical - it's at least a four hands' job. Your results most likely come about, in my opinion, by a change to a light, easily digested diet. The bird's own immune system did the rest.

And my last point would be that you (and others) still confuse the symptoms as the cause of this illness. What you attempt to do cures only the symptoms - not the cause.

Identify what causes YBS. And solve it.

Prevention is always better than cure in my book.

There is no cure for y/b sickness ie adino virus. you can treat secondary infections, that you get wen you get the virus things like e coli canker cocci etc etc but you can t treat the virus itself, you can help by giving nat yougurt feed light like depurative. Best thing to do wen you think you got it is send droppings of to reputable vet. i use l rigby. they will give you full test then you treat for what secondary infection you have.

Well, this is a REALLY long one this time, but with due respect to you all, none of you appear to fully appreciate, understand or give the birds' own immune the credit it deserves. Stucky has again repeated the general misunderstanding that nothing can tackle a viral infection. Please feel free to copy the following ( pages, it will take a little time to digest (good pun again   ) but I think it will be worth your trouble:


Volume IV, Issue 1

The HolisticBird Newsletter Devoted to Health and Healing of Avian Mind, Body, Spirit. Spring 2004

The Immune System  


The primary role of the immune system is to provide the bird with the ability to resist invasion and injurious effects from pathogens (disease causing organisms.) A bird’s immune system consists mainly of lymphatic vessels and lymphoid tissues.






 
Major Lymph Organs

The two major immune system organs are: Bursa of Fabricius (associated with B-cells) and the Thymus Gland (associated with T-cells).

Bursa of Fabricius is predominate in young birds and is situated adjacent to the cloaca. It is the source of antigen-producing B-lymphocytes in embryonic stage. B-lymphocytes, the cells that produce antibodies, are initially produced in the embryonic liver, yolk sac and bone marrow, then move through the blood to the Bursa of Fabricius where they mature. Gradually, as birds grow older, the Bursa of Fabricus becomes smaller. At about the time of the bird's sexual maturity, it has atrophied and no longer functions.

The Thymus gland is located in the neck along the jugular vein and functions at peak levels in the young. It produces hormones that program certain lymphocytes against certain antigens. T-lymphocytes begin as the same stem cells as the B-cells, but are programmed in the thymus rather than the Bursa of Fabricus.

The Spleen is divided into red and white pulp. The white pulp is where the T-lymphocytes reside. The spleen filters and cleans the blood of debris and destroys worn out red blood cells. The bone marrow produces lymphocytes and macrophages. The lymph nodes filter lymph.

Secondary Lymph Organs

The secondary lymphatic organs are the spleen, bone marrow, mural lymph nodules and lymph nodes along with the lymphatic circulatory system of vessels and capillaries that transport lymph fluid throughout the body. Unlike mammals, birds do not have organised lymph nodes.

The immune system is divided into non-specific and specific immune mechanisms and has three types of defences. The first two defences are considered non-specific while the third is specific.

The non-specific defence system responds immediately to protect the bird from all foreign substances. It is provided by intact skin, mucous membranes, the inflammatory response, white blood cells and a number of proteins produced by body cells. This system reduces the workload of the specific defence system by preventing entry and spread of micro organisms throughout the body.

The specific defence system puts up an attack against particular foreign substances. While certain body organs are involved, the immune response consists mostly of a variety of molecules and immune cells (lymphocytes and macrophages) which inhibit the lymphatic tissues and circulate in body fluids.

When the immune system is functioning properly, it will protect against most invading bacteria, viruses, and cells that have turned on its own body. It does this by cell attack and by releasing mobilising chemicals and protective antibody molecules.

First Defence (non-specific)

The first defence is the feathers and skin, which provide a physical barrier that some disease organisms cannot penetrate. Another is the normal micro flora found in the stomach along with a thick mucus layer. When the microbial population is dense and stable in the stomach, mucus helps to prevent the invading organisms from gaining a foothold. In the respiratory tract there are fine hair-like projections called cilia that help to sweep invading bacteria back up toward the beak keeping it from entering the lower respiratory system. When the first defence is penetrated and the pathogens invade deeper tissues the second line of defence comes to defend the body.

Second Defence (non-specific)

The second line of defence is made up of cells and a chemical defence. These are circulating in the blood and organs. Phagocytes are large white cells that attract the pathogen and engulf it and digest it. Phagocytes include monocytes, macrophages, and neutrophils.

Monocytes circulate in the blood and travel to the site of infection. Once at the site they turn into macrophages. Macrophages are found in tissues throughout the body. They act as scavengers secrete a wide variety of powerful chemicals and play a role in activating T cells. Neutrophils form a primary defence against bacteria and move out of the blood to infected tissue when needed. In a serious bacterial infection, neutrophils will be produced in increased numbers resulting in a higher than normal white blood count.

Natural killer cells (NK) patrol the body in the lymph and blood. They attack the membrane of target cell and release chemicals that cause the target cell’s membrane and nucleus to disintegrate. They kill cancer cells, tumour cells and virus-infected cells before the specific immune system gets involved. Natural killer cells can act upon any target cell by recognising certain sugars on the invading cell’s surface.

The inflammatory response begins with a chemical alarm. When cells are injured they release inflammatory chemicals such as histamines and kinins that activate pain receptors, cause blood vessels and capillaries to become dilated and leaky (causing heat, redness and swelling) and attract phagocytes and white blood cells to the area. The inflammatory response prevents the spread of damaging agents to nearby tissues, sends the phagocytes to dispose of cell debris and pathogens, sends clotting proteins to the area, and sets the stage for repair.

Anti-microbial chemicals are another defence. These include, interferons, complements (20+ plasma proteins that circulate in the blood inactive until they attach to a foreign cell) and fever. Interferons are proteins released by virus-infected cells that protect uninfected tissue cells from a viral take-over. Complements break down micro-organisms and help to intensify the inflammatory response. Fever inhibits multiplication of bacteria and enhances the body repair process.

The Immune System (specific defence)

The immune response immensely increases the inflammatory response and provides protection that is carefully targeted against specific antigens. Once it has been exposed to a new antigen it will store it in its memory bank and react to it more intensely the next time around.

An antigen is any substance that gets the immune system excited so that it induces a response. Antigens can be foreign proteins, large carbohydrates, pollen, bacteria, fungi, virus particles, and some lipids. Antigens are usually large molecules, but small molecules may link up with the body’s own proteins and seem foreign to the immune system, therefore triggering an immune response (like allergies).


Cells of the Immune System

The major cells of the immune system are lymphocytes and macrophages. There are two types of lymphocytes, B-lymphocytes, and T-lymphocytes created in the embryonic liver, yolk sac, and bone marrow. The T-cells travel to the thymus to become capable to responding to specific antigens by binding to them. B-cells travel to the Bursa of Fabricius (for approximately 6 weeks) where they get programmed for their specific antigen. Once capable, they circulate in the blood and lymph and travel to the other lymph organs where they encounter antigens. Once they have recognised and bound to an antigen they become mature lymphocytes and only attack that certain antigen.

B-cells produce antibodies. Antibodies are soluble proteins made up of amino acids. They inactivate antigens by binding to the antigen, breaking down the cell wall and release molecules that enhance the inflammatory process. Antibodies can bind to more than one antigen at a time. This process produces clumping and immobilisation, which allows the phagocytes to capture and engulf the antigens more easily.

There are three classes of antibodies, known as immunoglobulins (Ig), produced in birds after exposure to a disease organism: IgM, IgG, and IgA. IgM appears after 4-5 days following exposure to a disease organism and then disappears by 10-12 days. IgG is detected after 5 days following exposure, peaks at 3 to 3 ½ weeks, and then slowly decreases. IgA appears after 5 days following exposure. This antibody is found primarily in the mucus secretions of the eyes, gut, and respiratory tract.

T-cells are not able to bind to free antigens. Instead, macrophages engulf antigens and present them on its membrane for recognition by the T cell bearing the same receptor for the same antigen. Macrophages also release a chemical that activates the T cells. Killer T cells bind to an antigen inserting a chemical called perforin into the foreign cell’s membrane that causes it to rupture. Helper T cells circulate through the body and recruit other cells to fight the antigens. Suppressor T cells slow down the body’s immune system when an antigen has been successfully inactivated or destroyed.

Protective Nutrients

While the immune system is responding against pathogens, it too can produce harmful substances. When the immune system acts, T-cells, B-cells and phagocytes are multiplying rapidly and are prone to peroxidative damage by free radicals. Certain antioxidants may help. Vitamin E is present in the cellular membranes and prevents oxidation of unsaturated lipids by free radicals. Vitamin E works closely with Selenium, which is a component of an enzyme (glutathione peroxidase) that removes active peroxides from cells before they oxidise unsaturated lipids. Vitamins C and A are both antioxidants. Vitamin C can inactivated free radicals directly in the cell and can act indirectly by regenerating the antioxidant form of Vitamin E.

Zinc is a cofactor for the antioxidant enzyme superoxide dismutase. Zinc plays a role in cell division, cell stability, protein metabolism, and carbohydrate digestion. It aids in wound healing and lymphocyte productions. Deficiency can reduce the number of T cells and decrease natural killer cell activity. Copper enhances the development of red and white blood cells. Deficiency reduces the maturation of lymphocytes. Magnesium is crucial for lymphocyte growth. Deficiency reduces the levels of immunoglobulin and antibody forming cells and promotes production of free radicals and lipid peroxidation.

Some Herbs for the Immune System

Astragalus

Astragalus promotes healing and strengthens the immune system and is often used as a preventative at the onset of infection. It has been found to enhance the immune system by stimulating the responsiveness of T-cells. Research at the University of Texas took damaged immune cells from cancer patients and added Astragalus extract to the cells and compared them to normal immune cells. The Astragalus was able to completely restore the cancer patient’s cells to normal and in some instances the cells were stimulated to a more heightened response than that of a normal cell. Another study suggested long-term use (35 days) heightened the activity of spleen cells.

Echinacea

Echinacea helps to activate macrophages that are directly involved with the destruction of infectious agents. It also increases the production of interferon (a protein released by virus-infected cells that protect uninfected tissue cells from viral take-over), an important part of the body’s defence against viral infections. It has also been shown to activate natural killer T cells and is an anti-inflammatory. It also inhibits the bacterial enzyme hyaluronidase, to help prevent bacterial access to healthy cells.

Garlic

Garlic is rich in antioxidants, vitamins, and minerals. Helps to enhance phagocyte activity and proliferation of T cells and the sulfur compounds enhance natural killer cells. It has antibacterial, antiviral, and antifungal activity. It has been shown to inhibit the growth of the yeast organism Candidiasis albicans.

Reishi Mushroom

Reishi mushroom has adaptogenic qualities that normalise bodily functions and improve stamina. It is an antioxidant that raises T-cell levels and inhibits bacteria and viruses.

My theory about Y/B sickness is it is started by stress, years ago before  young on dakness and winning with Y/B's at all cost .  young birds were reared naturally. So their imune system was under no stress if you interfere with nature there will be a price to pay. I personally do not use Darkness and use young bird racing to educate my youngsters and am usually down at the low end of results, and have never had Y/B sickness in my loft. young birds are still developing  and growing they do not need to be flogged down the road as people are doing,  they are babys for a year but racing pigeons for the rest of their lives

fly hard fly fair

Im same as u shadow never had yb sickness but i have had my birds on darkness personally I think stress plays a big part in it there are too many people who send at any price whether the birds are right or not (cant lose the chance of being in the averages) totally agree with you they are babies and need to be allowed to develop and grow  I stick to a decent team of perhaps underworked yearlings to start with than a team of yearlings that i burnt out as ybs anyday

Rose & Shadow, agree with you about stress and young birds.  

And if in the space of just a few weeks 'we' can undermine an immune system which has been 60 million years in the making, and create serious illness in our young birds, I reckon what what 'we' are doing wrong must be more than just a wee bit wide of the mark.

You are exactly right stucky 1, there is no cure for YBS and it is the secondary illnesses that kill them. But are you all even talking about the same thing when you talk about YBS? Has anyone actually had a post mortem done? This year at our Washington State one loft race I had an interesting chat with the loft manager. It seems that straight away when they were receiving birds from all over the state some started getting sick and dropping dead. Not knowing for sure what to treat for they took a pigeon to the University of Washington to have a post mortem. They found that it had circa virus. I'm not certain of the spelling and I believe this is a shortened version of the name. At any rate it was a virus with no known cure. It was the secondary infections that were killing the birds as the virus left the birds with no immune system to fight them off. The recommendation was to put bleach in the water to prevent the spread. Yes, that's right BLEACH in the water, 5cc's to a liter of water. The birds that recovered were immune and not pass it on there after.
Carol