Pigeonbasics.com

Mealybar, I use Virkon S to spray my cleaning stuff, feeders, gallipots, baskets and the drain outside my loft. I also use it for my club's baskets, drinkers and the pail the drinkers are emptied into. For my gloves after I've cleaned those baskets. I believe that it keeps me and my birds safe when used as directed - applications for which DEFRA has approved this disinfectant are all external use, i.e. in animal accommodation - all surfaces and equipment in farms, hatcheries, kennels, catteries, stables, cages and other animal accommodation.  
'The big red X' is actually a big black X on a red background with the word IRRITANT in black. Sorry for the misinformation on that one - familiarity and all that. The warning label reads: Virkon S Powder. Irritating to the skin. Risk of serious damage to the eyes. Keep away from children. Do not breathe the dust. Avoid contact with the skin and eyes. In case of contact with the eyes, rinse immediately with plenty of water. Seek medical advice. In answer to your question, no I wouldn't use it in the drinker and for those who do the 'seek medical advice' would best be done by a psychiatrist!!!  
Speckled, I've seen the same type of thing on bottles at the dentist too. Anything hazardous to (human) health must by law carry a warning on the product label. Dentist obviously knows what he/she is about and hopefully your dental problem's cleared up OK.

Quoted from bruno

On sterilising the drinkers, isn't there a safer way? Read in the BHW of one chap who pops his in the microwave oven for a couple of minutes. Any hard facts on this one? Would that do the trick or not?

Bruno, I would use another method of sterilisation if there was one I could trust to be as effective as bleach, but less aggressive on the birds' digestive system. I use the bleach method as it is what I used during my years sampling. You can use direct flame if the drinker is metal, but the plastic has a tendancy to melt!lol
The idea of microwaving the drinkers may be practicable but certain plastics can be adversely affected by microwaving. That is why the shops sell containers which are "microwavable." As I understand it, if they are not, some chemicals in their make up can be leached by the heat, into the food.
Whenever I use bleach though, I wash the container thoroughly in cold water to remove any bleach residue. You can give the container a swirl with vinegar (cider vinegar would do) which also has the effect of neutralising the bleach residue, and has no real effect on the birds.

Doostalker, I went away and came back to your posting just to make sure I was reading it correctly. I think you may have misunderstood my concerns. I don't have any problem with what you are doing to keep your drinkers safe. As a daft teenager I used to use Vim and boiling water to clean my metal (enamel coated) drinkers, just about taking off the top layer of the skin on my hands in the process. I then emptied the Daar reservoir rinsing them in cold water - just about freezing myself to death in winter.
My concern is with those people whom I believe are at best misinformed and at worst (fill in what you like) who actually put bleach, disinfectant, milton and other harmful agents in the birds' water and expect them to drink it in the belief that it will kill 'bad bugs' both in the drinker and inside the bird. They are sadly deluded.
You are perfectly correct in what you are doing by using your bleach to clean your drinkers and rinsing them thoroughly before filling them with water and putting the drinkers in front of your birds. That is what these substances are for - external use - i.e. external and away from the living creature.

Quoted from bruno

In answer to your question, no I wouldn't use it in the drinker and for those who do the 'seek medical advice' would best be done by a psychiatrist!!!

Very good bruno, however I can assure you and everyone else that at the amounts posted that it is completely safe, and indeed advantageous in combatting many ailments in pigeons. Each to their own.

Mealybar, sorry to disagree with you on this one, but bleach is non specific in its destruction of bacteria. By that I mean it will kill all bacteria in their gut, and if you dilute it to such an extent as to do no harm to the bird's gut, then you have to question what purpose it is serving. At minute dilution rates it would be too weak to have any effect beneficially or detrimentally.

Arguably, in part you are right, if someone wants to dilute it to the stage where it has no effect, then whilst it is doing no harm to the bird there may be benefit from it being a panacea to the fancier. But that takes us in to a whole world of use of things for peace of mind as opposed to delivered benefits.

Mealybar, I don't think it will be 'each to his own' for very much longer.
A new Animal Welfare Act is expected to become law in Scotland this year bringing us into line with the rest of the UK - the one already applicable to you and your pigeons. It imposes a Duty of Care on you which gives animal welfare organisations like the rspca rights of access to your birds and their accommodation and the right to prosecute you if they see or find anything likely to be construed as mistreating an animal.
Sticking to Virkon and its use. I have already posted the conditions of use for which DEFRA have licensed this product for sale throughout the UK. The warnings of its effects on humans give a very clear indication as to the harm it is capable of doing to human tissues - what then is it capable of doing to a pigeon's delicate nasal, throat, and digestive tract linings?
I would be very interested to see the paperwork on the research,  particularly on the bird tissue samples, which proves that Virkon is safe to use in this way, together with the research that proves combat of the many ailments (which ailments?) you infer.
I would also like to be in the viewing gallery of the court during a prosecution of a case like this especially when counsel for the company takes the stand and refers to the conditions of use on the package. The company aint going to lose its production & marketing license trying to defend a clear misuse of its product.  

just out of curiosity   ihave put a half teaspoonfull o milton in a pint of water and drank it ,  and i can tell you its done me a lot better than what i used to drink,at least i never had a hangover ha ha,try it?

going back to doostalker, i agree that there is good bacteria and bad bacteria, but the point i was trying to make was, when the crop is so infected, the bad bacteria are [winning] so to speak, and killing off the good bacteria, thats why the bird is so ill in the first place, the good bacteria becomes non existant , therefor the bird dies.  so by killing all the bacteria,the bird will then naturaly build up its own immunity, which are good bacteria, all the topics on this subject are very interesting indeed and worth sifting through ,    the one thing we all agree  on is the stress factor, keep the posts going and we can all learn by it,one other point was that years ago  the yb nat was cheltenham which was about 300 miles im not nit picking at you bruno, the opposite, im finding your posts very interesting, good luck to all  jimmy

So thats why ya carry a big  black "X" Bruno, for "Iratation".ye well & trully cleared up

See that bottle of Milton, Jimmy White (Or as they say in the west, see you Jimmy sees that bottle) would you mind having a look at the label (like I did with Virkon S) and posting what it says on this forum? Don't race as White & McKay by any chance?
The evidence is that YBS is a complex condition involving a number of agents: bacteria, virus, yeast,  etc working together in an unknown way on an immune system lowered by stress.
I've read somewhere that the digestive system collapses -now whether that means the gut as a tube collapses flat as a ruler, or digestion stops I'm not sure. If it collapses that is serious sh*t according to the various animal rescue etc programmes I've seen on TV. Either way, I think we all agree the bird is severely compromised and could be near death.
My point is: why compromise the bird further by doing something which may give Jimmy's 'losing' immune system an additional front to fight (tissue damage) AND remove all of its army - the friendly bacteria too? Please note that those damaged tissues - e.g. the throat, nose, lungs/air sacs, and gut linings - are part of the bird's immune system too. We surely want to keep and multiply all the organisms needed in the bird's natural defence system and at the same time give the other little scumbags what are in there a right good tanking.
My thoughts are already on next year's young birds. Wonder if I'll have the courage to convert to 'the old way' - breed around 20 rather than 30, train well before racing, then race only, every week until the moult stops them; and see how many I'm left with (15?) and what shape they're in?

Cut-down extract from web journal, dated 2000. Note: Adenovirus causes gastroenteritis in humans and the following relates to humans, but its principles remain the same for pigeons. It describes the host’s defences i.e. the body’s natural immune systems’ response to a viral infection……….

Adenoviruses induce only very low levels of morbidity in general and this characteristic initially seemed to make them attractive as gene vectors. However, on closer scrutiny, it becomes evident that a well-orchestrated host defence is the key factor in the suppression of virus spread during infection and, since this could be just as effective against a vector, it becomes important to unravel the complex molecular operations involved in mounting the host defences.
Host cells have a range of strategies to combat any incursion by an intruder; these can be considered as innate and adaptive. With respect to the former, it has recently been established that some epithelial cells release 3–4 kDa antimicrobial peptides termed defensins and it has been shown that these compounds can provide significant protection from adenovirus infection. Indeed, an adenovirus vector expressing a defensin has been utilized to supplement innate defences. Some tissues, on receiving the appropriate signal will release multiple chemokines that, in turn, recruit neutrophils and invoke an inflammatory response. Innate defence mechanisms such as recruitment of macrophages, activation of complement and natural killer (NK) cells have been shown to play a significant role in clearing an adenovirus infection in vivo. The transcription factor NF- B appears to be a key regulator of the innate antiviral response  since it can activate the transcription of cytokines and adhesion molecules, leading to the production of a range of proinflammatory cytokines and the orchestration of other signalling pathways. It has been claimed that adenovirus infection, especially at high multiplicities, can lead to the activation of NF- B at early stages of infection.

…………….A bit on the technical side, but an added insight as to what is going on inside the bird and what it is capable of doing for itself. It also dispels the myth in this forum that nothing can kill a virus. 60 million year’s of evolution on the bird’s immune system proves otherwise.

Are you still willing to risk damaging a system like this through ignorance?

well this is not technical      geordie bain,  as in bain wallace and spalding, were the first members along with davie rose to win a gold award ,and george was the man that advised me to use milton, as he used it regular, if it was good enough for him its good enough for me jimmy

Seem to have got out wrong side of the bed this morning, James. Or has your glass of Milton not had the desired results perhaps?
Apologies offered to all from me for the misinformation I posted previously on Milton. After ferreting out the information for myself I see that it is a perfectly harmless product. And totally useless for the purposes you all seem so keen to put it to. Seems it turns to water and salt as soon as it touches the (bird’s) mouth. Well done all for stimulating a debate in which we have collectively put at least one piece of witchcraft to bed: .

What is Milton made of?

Milton Fluid is made of an aqueous solution of 2% sodium hypochlorite and 16.5% sodium chloride.

Hypochlorites are known to be unstable. Is Milton any different?

Yes, the purification process during the manufacture of Milton ensures complete removal of all heavy metal ions, which would normally act as a catalyst to chemically breakdown many hypochlorites, causing instability. Therefore accurate levels of available chlorine can be obtained with Milton.

Hypochlorite is bleach, which is toxic. Is Milton toxic also?

No. As stated above, toxicity in hypochlorites is due to the by-product of their
decomposition, sodium chlorate. With the heavy ions removed Milton decomposes into water and a small amount of sodium chloride (salt).

What are the main properties of Milton?

Stability. Non Toxicity.

It is known that Milton can be used as a disinfecting agent, but can it sterilise?

Milton will sterilise as long as the requirements for chemical sterilisation with hypochlorites is carried out. These are:
(a) Scrupulous attention to pre-cleansing of the item to be sterilised.
(b) Stability and lack of toxicity of the active agent.
(c) That the article to be sterilised is of a material compatible with hypochlorite
and is so constructed that it can be cleaned properly.
The Milton Method of cleaning bottle and teats incorporates these requirements.

What is the difference between Sterilisation, Disinfection and Antisepsis?

Official publications give the following definitions: (ref. Collins, C. H. and
Lyne,P. M., 1976)

Sterilisation: This is an absolute term meaning complete destruction or removal of all viable micro-organisms.

Disinfection: Describes the elimination or destruction of micro-organisms, but not usually bacterial spores. Generally applied to the process of making inanimate objects free from infection and safe to handle.

Antisepsis: Destruction of micro-organisms, but not bacterial spores, on skin, mucus membrane or living tissue to prevent sepsis.

Milton Fluid can be considered in terms of each of these actions depending on the specific situation or application.

Therefore a work surface can be wiped over with Milton to disinfect it by killing all 'live' bacteria, but it cannot be sterilised in this way. To sterilise an object it has to be scrupulously cleaned then soaked for the required time in a solution of Milton. This will kill spores.

Thrush is a common problem in babies. Will Milton kill thrush?

Milton will kill thrush within ten minutes. Milton will not cause thrush by killing off the normal commensal bacteria in the mouth. As soon as any Milton on a teat touches protein either in the bottle or in the mouth, it is neutralised into a small amount of salt.

What happens if a child swallows Milton?

Because of the salt in the solution in the bottle, the child will usually spit the fluid out, or at worst become sick. If they are not sick, there is no need to worry but a concerned parent can give the child a drink of milk. Milk being protein will neutralise the Milton.

Can Milton be used for other applications other than for sterilising a baby's feeding equipment?

You don't have to have a baby to use Milton. Because it is safe and not toxic, Milton can be used to disinfect kitchen work surfaces, chopping boards, wiping out fridges, microwaves, storage containers, pet bowls and bins. It can also be used to soak fruit and vegetables where the microbiological safety of such items is suspect.

I promised Mealybar that I would post this extract from the web on Virkon S as a disinfectant in water. I’ve left a bit of the front part on  (Cleaning & Disinfecting Equipment) to give headings to the columns as the grid lines disappeared when I downloaded it.


Task         Dilution         Application            

Cleaning & Disinfecting Equipment
                           
Farm Food Processing & Hatcheries         1:200-1:100
(0.5%-1%) depending on level of soiling         Use a pressure washer at low pressure (300psi) or other mechanical sprayer apply at a rate of 300ml/m².            
Virus Pre-soak. (To clean farm buildings in a specific virus control programme).         1:200 (0.5%)        
Pre-soak using a pressure washer at low pressure (300psi) or fan jet sprayer apply at a rate of 500ml/m² to all surfaces and leave for 30 minutes. Rinse thoroughly with water.            
                           
Water Sanitation

                           
Terminal Cleanout         1:200 (0.5%)        
Dose header tank and drain system leave for at least 1 hour and flush through with clean water.            

Continuous Water Sanitation         1:1000 (0.1%)         Dose header tank as required or apply through dosing system.            
                           
Water Sanitation        
Litres of water to be sanitised     Terminal Cleanout 1:200     Terminal Cleanout 1:200
100L
250L
500L
1000L     500g
1.25kg
2.5kg
5kg     100g
250g
500g
1kg


The part we are interested in is water sanitation and yes, Mealybar, on the face of it you are correct that Virkon can be used to disinfect water. But take a closer look at the water, where it comes from and what it is used for. It isn’t drinking water because it comes from a header tank (not even a cold water storage tank)  and is used for cleaning out operations within ‘the terminal’. Makes sense too, because there’s not much sense in hosing away the bugs in the manure on the ground when the water you are using is contaminated with salmonella, legionaires etc.

Well so much for that then, first bleeding grid lines go, then columns. Sorry about the dog's dinner.

no bruno i didnt get out the wrong side off bed, i just fell over my dictionary   once i digest all you have written, it might take some time,   i dont mean to be cheeky but its pigeon fanciers your talking to.  not mp,s in the houses of parliament ,im actualy finding it all amusing, i  allthough i do realise its a serious subject, and i really gennuinly find it interesting,let me have a good browze through, when i have time, and we can see what we make of it all   all the best jimmy

bruno now this is a very interesting topic, so lets try and keep it a topic and not an arguement , to come out with [bleeding dumplin] [ see a phsychiatrist] [having to apologise on at least two previous posts ] [take a sick bird to a fellow fancier] are, to my mind not conducive to good and sensible debate, so without all that, we may discuss things in a reasonable fashion,. first of all lets be freinds and enjoy a good discussion, as i do beleive you have made some good points, and obviously done your homework.now as you were very pleased with the vet that treated your bird with the broken wing,why dont we consult a vet, to find out the answer to the use of milton.i  have a reading here from DAVID PALMER the bhw vet,QUOTE,,,   KEEP THE DRINKING WATER CLEAN. BIRDS INEV ITABLEY SWILL OUT THEIR MOUTHS WHEN DRINKING, AND WILL LEAVE ANY CONTAGIOUS,INFECTIVE ORGANISMS IN THE DRINKER FOR THE NEXT BIRD TO PICK UP.THE SPREAD OF CANKER, ORNITHOSIS AND MYCOPLASMOSIS IS PARTICULARLY EASY BY THIS ROUTE, BUT DROPPINGS LEFT IN THE WATER WILL SPREAD SALMONELLA, CANKER,E.COLI, YB .,SICKNESS,,OTHER BACTERIAL DISEASE AND P.M.V.THE WATER MUST BE KEPT FRESH AND CLEAN AND THIS IS ACHEIVED BY FREQUENT CHANGING  OR THE USE OF A MILD HYPOCHLORITE DISINFECTANT, OF WHICH A TABLET OF     #MILTON# PER GALLON WILL DO NICELY.   UNQUOTE.  now who are we to beleive,??,      i have used milton on many occasions and found it does no harm whatsoever, now according to you it does nothing to the water. now if that is so,  its not harming the birds. if its not harming the birds it may have a placebo effect on me, even if the vet IS wrong??  if i think it is doing good then it is   [thats is the   placebo effect ,IF the vet is wrong] its just my opinion on the matter, please beleive me when i say i dont want to argue, im sure youll agree that,that gets us nowhere beleive me,but i feel its good to debate without losing freinds. I SINCERELY WISH YOU WELL JIMMY

Thanks for the confirmation Jimmy that I am rubbing people like yourself up the wrong way. Hopefully this isn’t the reason why half the people from the old conference don’t take part in this one?

It is not my intention to offend anyone, or insult or argue with people either in print or face-to-face. In fact I usually keep my mouth firmly shut. If you look at the other forums you will see I am usually conspicuous by my absence. I come in only if someone is looking for help or seeking advice on something I know something about and can contribute something positive in my post.

I said earlier that I cannot find smilies in this new conference and I know I am also very straight-to-the-point. These are obviously working against me. I also regard this conference as a debate – certainly not an argument – and a real search for up-to-date, hard facts, rather than sticking to the old unproven theories or another serving up of ‘what we think we know’. Times change, methods change and ingredients change.

Now ‘bleeding dumplin’ I can understand as offensive, and I have already apologised for that. In the context of discussing the labelling of harmful substances ‘ advised to seek medical advice’ and within the context of abusing that substance, adding ‘see a psychiatrist’ isn’t offensive – it’s supposed to be funny. Mealybar seems to have taken it as I intended. However your taking that statement out of context IS offensive, and for someone like me with mental illness in the family,–  particularly offensive that you even suggest that I would make fun of it.
I cannot understand how ‘take a sick bird to a fellow fancier’ offends unless it is again taken out of its context of advising someone new to pigeons or faced with something they haven’t seen before or don’t understand. Most have mentors, trusted people who have ‘volunteered’ and are willing to keep them up-to-speed. Or am I missing something?
And yes, I apologise when I get it wrong but I will certainly NOT apologise for that! How many other apologies have you seen in this or the old conference? My original information on Milton was out of date and I apologised for misleading others in the forum. What else could I do? I’d like to answer your Milton query in a separate posting.
I have certainly no reason nor any intention of falling out with anyone.
BEST REGARDS.

‘what I thought I knew’ about Milton

As new and young parents in 1970 we were advised by the local health visitor that after sterilising the babies bottles etc., they had to be well rinsed as it (the 1970’s version of Milton) if swallowed, harmed the baby. I’ve never forgotten that – who could?

I didn’t have pigeons between 1973 and 2002. I started reading up on them around 2000. Everything had changed. And some of what I was reading didn’t make sense like giving Milton (dangerous for babies - in 1970) to pigeons? So when I saw this advice and others like it posted in this forum, I posted ‘what I thought I knew’ about giving Milton to pigeons.

The updated information on Milton is not according to me Jimmy but from the makers of Milton. I posted it from their web site :

http://www.milton-tm.com/healthpro/health_professional.htm

The Milton you and the late David Palmer knew has probably changed too, Jimmy. When you think it through a product used in baby care and dangerous to babies just wouldn’t be tolerated today. There must be a safeguard built in somewhere. The key to that safeguard, cut-down from my original post, and highlighted in italics:

Thrush is a common problem in babies. Will Milton kill thrush?
…Milton will not …….kill off the normal bacteria in the mouth. As soon as Milton touches protein either in the bottle or in the mouth, it is neutralised into a small amount of salt.

What happens if a child swallows Milton?
Because of the salt in the solution in the bottle, the child will usually spit the fluid out, or at worst become sick. If they are not sick, there is no need to worry but a concerned parent can give the child a drink of milk. Milk being protein will neutralise the Milton.

This is new and important information about Milton. Relate this now to what the late David Palmer described about contamination of the bird’s drinking water: all of these contaminants contain protein, and according the company (not me) this neutralises Milton – it turns it to salt and water.

Now for the Irish in me: I said it Milton was harmless - but in a very dangerous way!!!!

For far from being your Placebo Jimmy, you (and others) expect Milton to protect your birds’ water – it doesn’t. The slightest bit of saliva, feather, bloom – all the normal stuff in a loft – neutralises it. If you touched the water with your hands – you’ve neutralised Milton. In the treatment of YBS – this forum – advice was given to give the bird Milton to drink in the mistaken belief that it would kill bacteria in the gut. It won’t even get past the saliva in the bird’s mouth - salt & water arrive in the gut instead.

Now this is what we now KNOW about Milton. We have moved forward (slightly shaken, but not the least bit stirred) and we have achieved something.

I take your point about ‘talking to pigeon fanciers’, Jimmy. Would you have thought 30 years ago you would ever have had to use a vaccination needle or a computer or read a book on pigeon diseases written by a vet, when dealing with pigeons? As I warned the post on Adenovirus was very technical – but all pigeon fanciers are sufficiently knowledgeable and interested in their birds’ welfare to be able to pick out the bits and pieces that matter from amongst the scientific gobbledegook.

glad to here from you bruno  and as you point out sometimes we can become outdated [ i know i am haha] the qoute i printed was obviously an old one but really if i remember right it was sent to me around the year 2000, but i do notice on it,  i tablet per gallon, not in litres ,but it was david palmer[as far as i know] who sent me this.as i am in a bit of a rush at the moment ill have a better look at your interesting points asap meanwhile what i have done just out of curiosity, is put some grain in a heavily stained coffee cup with a spoonfull of milton,and water just to see if it takes the stains out the cup, with the protein in it,  will get back to you later .   proffessor  white ha ha  cheers bruno